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Apple's new "HTML5 Showcase" doesn't show much HTML5, and is browser-specific comments
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prd34. June 2010, 17:25
Originally posted by wonderboymusic:
http://www.osnews.com/story/23411/Apple_s_HTML5_Showcase_Isn_t_HTML5_Blocks_Other_Browsers
Not as dishonestly as in this case. And besides "that other guy is doing it" is not a valid excuse for being a liar.
Maybe they could try being honest for once?
Greg Thornton4. June 2010, 17:25
Originally posted by prd3:
Hey man, AFAIK, that was the only difference between Chrome and Safari as far as HTML5 went, since Google disabled that portion of Webkit in favor of Gears. Maybe it's back in since they ditched Gears. Feel free to "cherry pick" your own examples of Chrome's superiority and enlighten me.
prd34. June 2010, 17:27
Originally posted by xdissent:
According to Apple's own standards of throwing in random shit and calling it HTML5:
http://www.osnews.com/img/23411/compare.png
newRyszard4. June 2010, 17:30
Originally posted by prd3:
What? No one is threatening anyone. The current terms for H.264 usage will remain at least thru 2016 - that's eternity in this business - and there are no discussions about changing them. You're confusing speculation about a theoretical possibility with reality.
The Theora guys can't threaten to sue anyone because they are not the patent holders on the underlying technology.
Greg Thornton4. June 2010, 17:31
Wanna talk honesty?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/463624/Screen%20Shots/Screen%20shot%202010-06-04%20at%2012.30.16%20PM.png
Benjamin4. June 2010, 17:32
Most of those demos work on chrome also, except for the ones that uses hardware acceleration.
as for those "-webkit-" parameters, I think will eventually sneak into the HTML5 standard without the "-webkit-" preface.
prd34. June 2010, 17:35
Originally posted by newRyszard:
LOL. They were going to tighten the licensing, but decided to put it off because they could make more money by achieving a monopoly now and then increasing the prices a bit later.
Point being: H264 is closed crap. And Apple always supports closed crap.
Originally posted by xdissent:
Sure. Better leave out the liars at Apple, then. BTW, Chrome still gets a higher score.
prd34. June 2010, 17:35
Originally posted by monkeyrun:
It's more of an attempt to make it sound like Safari is the only HTML5 capable browser.
prd34. June 2010, 17:38
http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2010/06/04/check-out-these-html5-demos/
Greg Thornton4. June 2010, 17:40
Originally posted by prd3:
Argh, you can clearly see that 5 points are deducted for not having Ogg Theora...
Let's do this:
"Every new Apple mobile device and every new Mac — along with the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser — supports web standards including HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. These web standards are open, reliable, highly secure, and efficient. They allow web designers and developers to create advanced graphics, typography, animations, and transitions. Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today.
The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do."
Show me the lie. What in these statements do you find offensive? My point is that you're reacting extremely for no reason and further clouding the very waters of truth that you claim are being attacked. You just have your opinion, however poorly founded or misinformed, and want to shout it loudly any chance you get. Apple is not a villain today, I'm sorry!
prd34. June 2010, 17:46
Originally posted by xdissent:
Sorry, Chrome still beats it.
Christ. Read the damn comments. Apple calls it a "HTML5 showcase" even though it hardly showcases any HTML5 at all. Instead, it uses browser sniffing and vendor prefixes to make it look like Safari is THE browser to use for HTML5.
As this blog post is a response to people thinking that the page is evidence that Safari is the best at HTML5, people are clearly being misled.
Apple has a history of lies and distortion of facts. Such as making the completely retarded claim that "Safari is the most innovative browser".
newRyszard4. June 2010, 17:46
Originally posted by prd3:
Says who? You seem to have a set world-view and nothing reaches you except points that support that view, right, wrong, imagined, invented or perceived. Whatever, prd3, it's your life. You can live in a semi-paranoid state of mind if you want to. (Not an insult, just an observation).
Benjamin4. June 2010, 17:46
The idea of open standard is that it's controlled by a standard body and can be licensed by anyone.
WebM is more closed than H264.
prd34. June 2010, 17:49
Originally posted by newRyszard:
Uh, the MPEG-LA itself said they postponed the price increase for a few years.
Originally posted by monkeyrun:
Nope. An open web standard is free and open. Patent-encumbered crap can, by definition, not be an open web standard. Only a complete lunatic will claim that WebM is more closed than H264. LOL.
Cutting Spoon4. June 2010, 17:49
2) Opera does have some HTML5 examples on ODIN. It's hard to make a demo gallery for something that isn't final, period. So they only have a few specific tests in their developer resources.
3) Elements like border-radius can be used multiple times; it normally is not difficult to support the element for all browsers. A test of "open standards" should allow everyone to compete as best they are able. "Other browsers" in fact support nearly everything done in the showcase; Apple merely implies that everything there is UNIQUE to Safari, and perhaps in his benevolence Steve Jobs will help us lesser mortals reach a similar level of standards support. To call this language INSULTING would be to deny a rich tradition of duels for favor of a rigged jury.
4) The h.264 part is a sore spot for Opera and Mozilla. Let it lay, because Apple will not be demoing VP8 anytime soon. Just view it as an ethical/monetary divide.
5) Here's the fun one: Safari is not really webkit, same as Chrome is not really webkit. Safari's support of five-year-old standards does not work the same as reference webkit. Did I just blow your mind? Welcome to the script-timing/onload-timing compatibility nightmare.
Greg Thornton4. June 2010, 17:54
UPDATE: If you go to http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ instead of http://www.apple.com/html5/, you can use Chrome to try the demos. Some work, but the 3D ones don’t. It still browser-sniffs to block other browsers. If you diddle with the current version of Firefox to masquerade its user agent string as Safari, two of the demos work: “Audio” and “360°”.
prd34. June 2010, 18:02
Washington Post: Apple Web-standards demo requires Apple browsers
Yes, it's a damn farce.
Patrick H. Lauke4. June 2010, 18:03
prd34. June 2010, 18:04
Charles Schloss4. June 2010, 18:30
Originally posted by xdissent:
Not to agree with prd3 are you using 4.0.5 with all Mac OS updates installed?
I think the page is an attempt at getting more users to Safari
Already loaded the html5 page in Safari and reported a bug with a link to this blog post
Ti Wu4. June 2010, 18:42
Scott Taylor4. June 2010, 19:03
Also, you are being so fucking intellectually dishonest by bringing up the use of the term HTML5 as lying. You know they are using it as shorthand for HTML5/CSS3/JS, and they mention it in the very paragraph you are having an aneurysm over.
Rather than coming up with your (Opera, whoever reps Opera) own demos, you are shitting on Apple's cuz they are so mean and unfair! what a fucking cry baby.
Have you not noticed how little support you have gotten on this thread?
Lukas4. June 2010, 19:07
Scott Taylor4. June 2010, 19:11
prd34. June 2010, 19:31
Originally posted by wonderboymusic:
Opera has more than 130 million users worldwide (not counting bundled versions of Opera).
Also: No one uses Mac.
prd34. June 2010, 19:33
Originally posted by dioskouroi:
WRONG.
They claim that they support open standards, and are for an open web.
Then why is it called "HTML5 Showcase"?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks for proving my point:
Apple is dishonestly and falsely giving the impression that Safari is the way to go if you want to use HTML5!
The fact is that the page hardly even uses HTML5, and even Chrome has better HTML5 support than Safari.
FAIL.
prd34. June 2010, 19:36
Originally posted by wonderboymusic:
Exactly! And they are doing it by dishonestly using HTML5 as a buzzword.
That must be why Mac failed, and was hardly used by anyone, then. Never mind the fact that Opera is the dominant mobile browser, way ahead of Safari.
The simple fact is: The page hardly uses any HTML5, and yet they are dishonestly calling it a "HTML5 showcase". And as you can see from dioskouroi's comment, Apple fanboys are falling for it. They actually think Safari is the only viable browser when it comes to HTML5.
How many times do people have to point out that the blog post you are reading is a response to people asking about it? It says it right there in the first paragraph!
Have you noticed how the Apple fanboys consistently avoid the issue, and consistently ignore what other people are actually saying, and instead resort to lies and deception? They have learned from Apple, it seems!
newRyszard4. June 2010, 19:48
Originally posted by prd3:
Talk abou dishonesty, not a single one of the linked blogs uses the word "dishonest" or "dishonesty." Really shameful of you.
Originally posted by prd3:
I'm sure those were their exact words, too, as opposed to saying they're extending the current rules for a few years.
Originally posted by prd3:
That might be what you would wish open standards to mean, but that is certainly not their definition. In the current world, almost all standards are based on someone's IP.
prd34. June 2010, 19:54
Originally posted by newRyszard:
Uh, is this supposed to be a joke? They don't have to use the exact word "dishonesty" to describe dishonest behavior. Read them, and you will see that they do indeed describe dishonesty.
Originally posted by newRyszard:
On the current web, the standards must be free and open. Ask the W3C.
prd34. June 2010, 20:53
Apple's HTML5 'standards' hype debunked
Kamalesh4. June 2010, 21:09
What's also hard to endure is reading some of the plain dumb commentary here, and noticing the utter ignorance about how browsers work, web site blocking, user-agent strings, web standards & HTML5, etc...
For the teenagers in the audience that weren't there, web sites used to have the ugly signage: "Best viewed in Internet Explorer." This is the ugly homage that Apple is paying to the past with their HTML5 page and their need-Safari pop-up.
While it's a only demo page, not their actual web site or online store (like Amazon's deprecated site for Opera users), it's still uncool. They do mention "modern browsers"...but as some have noticed, it IS about getting people to download Safari and trying it...and it's probably working. (Notice Apple didn't put up a dialog box to say "Tested in Safari, but not Opera or any other cutting-edge browser...click HERE to continue anyway.)
Maybe Opera can push out a quick update to browser.js tonight!
Btw, given that Apple's page is mostly CSS3 (& the HTML5 video tag for T"ron"), take note of the irony that Opera's Chief Technology Officer, Håkon Wium Lie, INVENTED CSS -- and didn't patent it.
And, for those unsure who had the idea to add video to HTML5, notice Lie demo'ing an Opera build, with flash-less video...in March 2007.
http://zi.ma/c90e6
Scott Taylor4. June 2010, 21:12
prd34. June 2010, 21:51
Originally posted by wonderboymusic:
No, that article shows what the consensus is: Apple = debunked.
The only ones crying here are the Apple fanboys who are desperately trying to defend Apple's lies. The news articles about Apple's dishonesty are piling up, and desperate Apple fanboys are trying to make it go away.
It won't go away.
http://gadgetsteria.com/2010/06/04/apple-unveils-new-open-html-5-demos-page-blocks-all-browsers-except-safari/
http://www.webmonkey.com/2010/06/apples-html5-showcase-less-about-web-standards-more-about-apple/
http://www.osnews.com/story/23411/Apple_s_HTML5_Showcase_Isn_t_HTML5_Blocks_Other_Browsers
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward/2010/06/apple_web-standards_demo_requi.html
http://techie-buzz.com/browsers/apple-html5-demo-safari.html
http://www.tgdaily.com/software-features/50084-apple-blocks-non-safari-browsers-from-html5-demo
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/04/apple_html5_showcase_hype/
Charles Schloss4. June 2010, 21:54
Originally posted by prd3:
Originally posted by wonderboymusic:
Here Is one for both of you I use both Opera and I am on a Mac
Plus there are more than the big major browsers, there a many other browsers that have a good user base
Originally posted by wonderboymusic:
No this is going back to the days of the web were most web coders wrote code only for IE 6, which meant if you don't use Windows plus IE 6 you get some page with your browser such and such can't handle the page I remember when the web was like that. You know the reason why Netscape died off, was because of Microsoft Internet Explorer? IE became nearly a full monopoly on the web (one of the reason for all the complaints (and fines) from other browser vendors and governments)
All the competition also can create new ideas for web browsers
prd34. June 2010, 22:08
Originally posted by Chas4:
I just think it's amazing that a Mac user has the nerve to whine about other companies allegedly having a low market share, considering the Mac's position in the industry for all these years.
Ti Wu4. June 2010, 22:17
Originally posted by prd3:
They didn't lie. They do support open standards (Safari 4 got 113 points on html5test.com, only lower than Chrome 5(142), higher than Opera 10.53(102), Firefox 3.64(101) ), and are for an open web (they have to, otherwise iPhone and iPad may have many trouble on a web full of plug-ins and non-open contents). But it doesn't mean they can not do MORE than open standards.
Originally posted by prd3:
Of course you can blame Apple here for dishonesty. But so what? It's just a typical Apple -style propaganda. Most of people in the world do not know the core technologies (WebKit, Gecko, Presto, etc...) used in a browser, actually they don't even care about it. But everyone know, or at least, have heard about HTML5 which means the future of web. So it's comprehensible why Apple use "HTML5 Showcase" even though HTML5 today can not do what they want to do, just because HTML5 catches everyone's eyes.
Originally posted by prd3:
Opera could provide cooler features in their own "HTML5 Showcase". I won't mind if it's truly HTML5 or not, because HTML5 is not yet a mature standard. What I care is whether they can make the growing HTML5 better and better. I don't agree that Apple is giving the impression that Safari = HTML5. They are just showing off what they can do with WebKit and providing a imagine of HTML5 in future. "Dishonestly" and "falsely" are too harsh. Just don't take their HTML5-claim seriously ... it's simply a marketing strategy.
Leo4. June 2010, 22:19
I'm really wondering: what's the point of this demo ?
Krio Lyth4. June 2010, 22:21
if only IE users could cry...ah, no. They are stone-hearted, merciless warriors devoted (forcingly, perhaps) to the browser of their life.
Anyway, this site is just one of 250+ specifically crafted HTML5 showmakers. Everybody knows Apple likes to manipulate with facts and set up appropriate illumination. The thing is - there will be no winner, until there are 250 000+ sites in top million who exhibit HTML5 in its beauty. And that will only happen after the majority of browsers reaches decent compliance with the standards - Apple can't change that, no matter how much they wanted single-browserness. No testsuite ever attracted 95% of users.
Charles Schloss4. June 2010, 22:29
prd3 you comments towards others is much worse than whining
Originally posted by prd3:
It is not about other companies, it is about the future of the web
Krio Lyth4. June 2010, 22:29
Charles Schloss4. June 2010, 22:30
Originally posted by Kriolyth:
It would not be easy to do, as the spec itself is not final but parts of it are
newRyszard4. June 2010, 22:37
Originally posted by prd3:
You're original point, the one I tried to clarify for you, was that standards have to be patent free ("Patent-encumbered crap"), which is just incorrect. You can't keep reformulating your arguments and keep an intelligent discussion going.
Originally posted by Chas4:
This would be a valid point, and a terrible thing, indeed, if that's what Apple was doing here, but that's not how they code their general public web pages. Everyone keeps forgetting that theses demo pages are in Apple's dev section, intended as demonstrations of Safari's capabilities, for Safari developers. Apple clearly states the intent as to "show how Apple’s Safari web browser supports the capabilities of web standards such as HTML5." This has little to do with who, outside of Safari, is parsed out of viewing them (repeat: it's for Safari developers!). Seeing how everyone went on a tangent here, however, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple takes this down, depriving their developers of seeing these examples.
Krio Lyth4. June 2010, 22:38
d4rkn1ght4. June 2010, 22:41
http://www.webmonkey.com/2010/06/apples-html5-showcase-less-about-web-standards-more-about-apple/
Full name5. June 2010, 01:38
Cutting Spoon5. June 2010, 04:43
http://www.cultofmac.com/apple-responds-to-adobe-with-cool-html5-playground/45698
The URL sounds positive, but the actual write-up closes with "I love the new addition to Apple’s site, but what a misstep. Adobe is (hypocritally) advocating web openness, and Apple responds by saying, “HTML5 is the future of the open web…. but only if you use our browser.”
"It’s a move that plays into Adobe’s hands. This is a site that should work on any browser with up-to-spec HTML5 compliance: instead, in response to Adobe’s complaint about walled gardens, Apple made their own HTML5 advocacy site another one."
So, when much of what they demonstrate isn't even part of the HTML5 draft, they are simply pressing implementations that they want the W3C to explicitly require from other vendors.
Full name5. June 2010, 05:33
And last but not least, the user agent sniffer
Microsoft did a far better job at HTML5 demos than Apple, if only because you don't need to install the IE9 dev preview to use them.
digitalinksmudge5. June 2010, 05:34
Daringfireball states:
If you go to http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ instead of http://www.apple.com/html5/, you can use Chrome to try the demos.
Some work, but the 3D ones don’t. It still browser-sniffs to block other browsers. If you diddle with the current version of Firefox to masquerade its user agent string as Safari, two of the demos work: “Audio” and “360°”
Cheers!
digitalinksmudge5. June 2010, 05:53
Originally posted by Cutting Spoon:
I agree, and support Opera taking advantage of this to create a brilliant display of visual elements all highlighted by different aspects of HTML5... in Opera's own vision.
Odd&Even's /ad/ventures have introduce Opera quite uniquely, and it seems Chrome followed with a stunning Potato, then Opera peeled the humor back to provide us all a good laugh! What's Odd&Even doing for an HTML5 highlight ...film?
Cheers!
Mark Gillespie5. June 2010, 07:44