It's sad, we're going back to the early 00's where all it mattered was 1 browser: IE 6. Now everyone is packaging webkit with a random UI.
And don't tell me that this makes better compatibility between browsers because, at the end, is only one browser with several names.
So RIP Opera.
fritjofWednesday, February 13, 2013 9:39:39 PM
I befriended Opera in the year 2000 and watched it grow up. I love it because of its individuality and independence. Opera, the quiet little one, but superior to all other kids in class once you've come to know it. Please understand that this message hit me just as if a close relative hat a serious accident. I fear that I am going to lose Opera, and I have a very bad feeling about it. The Opera that I could relate to and identify with will be gone.
As your descision seems to be final, it's time for me to wipe off my tears and start to face the fact. Please, please adapt Webkit to Opera's features, and not Opera to Webkit's. The features of Opera (and I mean all of them) are what makes Opera different. Changing or dropping them in favor of "compatibility" will hole out Opera's individuality and the reasons why people chose it.
But when my knowledge is right, the architecture of Webkit is far too different from Presto to allow it just being plugged in, without significant changes to Opera above and under the hood. Just as an example of what I mean: The Dragonfly blog has been very quiet for two months now. Why continue developing Dragonfly, as Webkit already offers a website inspector?
My consequences of your descision is to keep the last Presto release, and to use it as long as possible.
Farewell, Opera. And don't let big A and big G bother you.
morbitWednesday, February 13, 2013 9:42:15 PM
Originally posted by fritjof:
Why continue developing Dragonfly, as Webkit already offers a website inspector?
According to twitter messages, there will be Dragonfly no more.
Alphons van WervenWednesday, February 13, 2013 10:12:18 PM
Originally posted by morbit:
I'm afraid this also spells end of neat, self-contained tars for FreeBSD
That would be a pity, but for me personally not necessarily a dealbreaker. Just like Opera is (at least until this WebKit thing goes through if it doesn't turn out to be a prank after all) kind of an unknown giant, so is FreeBSD. Occasionally having to contend with application developers who have never heard of compatibility and/or portability is part of the plight of a FreeBSDist. And to be honest, I can only commend and thank Opera Software for making the effort to provide native FreeBSD versions of Opera, which tend to work much better than the Linux versions using Linux emulation.
On the flip side, if there will be no taunting "Ha ha, got you hook line and sinker, did you really seriously think we would ever do such a thing?" press release shortly after April 1st (@Opera Software: hint: any day, including April 1st, ends at UTC-11 or earlier for all inhabited parts of the world) at least this will be a good incentive to try out some of the lesser-known surfboards before having to most probably settle on Firefox.
Erik HauboldWednesday, February 13, 2013 10:25:18 PM
Originally posted by fritjof:
Why continue developing Dragonfly, as Webkit already offers a website inspector?
well... icant debug my tablet with the webkit inspector without a cable. i can't do it by just clickin on remote-debugging and so on. there are many little things within dragonfly which made life easier and it'd be really sad to see them go
aguiadouradaWednesday, February 13, 2013 10:32:10 PM
Bad news. Especially for those of us who loved this alternative engine called Presto.
Why should I keep on using Opera if it's gonna be another layer in top of the Chromium browser? I would be already using Chrome if I liked that.
sirnh1Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:53:08 PM
I also hope that not to many features will dissapear. I love M2, feed manager, DF, having 50-70 tabs open (at once) and still actually keep working, the ability to place any button at any given place (that is something that's not possible in any other browser, just try placing the 'print preview' button in the main toolbar (I don't want a 'print' button in the main toolbar but I do want a 'print preview' button ).
This 'not knowing' what opera features will be 'killed of' is freaking me out a bit. My browser is my most used program (besides 2 specific MMO games I play), I don't want it to change (too much)...
Originally posted by ahoj1234:
Originally posted by sirnh1:
I'm positive that (if opera doesn't provide dragonfly) someone else will port it over
Port it is not the same as develop it Opera is developing it (at leas Opera was developing it)
I know, but one can only hope
Originally posted by Janghou:
Dragonfly relies on the (limited) Scope protocol, I doubt if that will be implemented in webkit.
I'm not familiar with what parts of the browser the chrome-dev tools have access to. But (with a bit of luck), it might be possible to (re)attach it to the correct extension api.
Originally posted by Janghou:
Sorry, I like DF too, but it had a couple of real weaknesses, compared to Chromium tools. - no live update in the DOM representation - no drag and drop in the DOM representation - weak profiling options - no live JS editing
I guess it all depends on what works the easiest for someone. In my opinion, DF has a better looking interface, easier to find some options/buttons/etc... some icons make buttons easier to recognize (for example I think the 'step into/step over/step out' buttons in chrome aren't intuitive, but the icons that opera uses for these buttons are similar to the ones in 'Visual Studio' and since I do all my developing in 'Visual Studio' it makes it a no-brainer for me).
DF also has the options 'select an element in the page to inspect it' and 'Highligh selected element' that I keep on at all times. This makes finding a certain element pretty easy. In chrome I need to find an alement (somewhere) in the 'Elements' tab or 'right click' it and choose 'inspect element'. Yes the inspect element works, but when I have the dev tools open, I just want to 'click' on the element to automatically have it selected (while now I need to find the option in the menu). (And I never use drag/drop or the profiling options, so I don't miss them).
WildEnteWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:00:57 PM
If this means less time spent on fixing things other people broke and more time for features everyone copies after a short while, why complain? From my amateurish perspective, the resources freed by this move should be substantial (in the long run), the know-how available at the company can be deployed more focused on things that cause actual benefit and unique selling points.
I never used Opera because of Presto but because it did the job better than the others (M2!). There was a time when Presto and Carakan were ahead of the rest of the pack - this is what made Webkit, Gecko and Trident good in the first place. A job well done, a sensible move.
WOW... Here come many security holes. Webkit? I understand the move especially for compatibility reasons but damn, things have been great for a long time with Presto. I hope for the best and stability!
André ZangheliniWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:18:43 PM
Webkit browsers have terrible performance because the browser is a shit, it's not the webkit fault.
Download Chrome and Safari, open chrome and use a few minutes. Now try to open Safari. Chrome sucks, but Safari is impossible to use, it's extremely slow compared with Chrome. If Webkit have all the fault both would have similar performance but it's not true.
A browser is more than a webpage render, of course it's maybe around 40% of the code but it only renders the page, the way it's handled is what makes the difference.
I see people talking about remove Turbo, Link, and other Opera features. Why the move would remove this features? None even have any sense why they would use the webpage render. If they don't touch the Presto engine today, why change to webkit would change them?
The only two features I see may need changes to work with new engine would be Turbo and Dragonfly. But they won't simply cut these features, or at least Turbo. Opera have a giant market on the mobile market and simply remove Turbo would kill them. It's a marketing kill.
Constantine VesnaWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:19:31 PM
The main question is "Will Opera now get its UI locked upon alert(), like any normal browser does ?"
André ZangheliniWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:24:56 PM
Answer: Probably no. I don't see it dependent of the JS or webpage engines, but more from the UI side.
vtomilinWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:31:35 PM
Moving to Webkit/V8 will hurt you more than it would help. First you got rid of Widgets, basically the very thing Google is running with now(packaged apps). Then you dismantled Unite. Now you want to remove your own beating heart and replace it with a foreign organ, you will hardly ever have any control over. Yea, all cool kids are doing it, sure.
Sam WronskiWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:35:10 PM
I browse constantly with anywhere between 50 and 100 tabs open. If I open that many on any other browser one of two things happens: (1) the browser crashes. (2) my computer freezes. I hope that this power in rendering multiple tabs remains in Opera 13.
You have the potential to kill yourselves with this release. I hope you prove us all wrong, but I worry you won't.
Alphons van WervenWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:39:32 PM
Originally posted by An-dz:
If Webkit have all the fault both would have similar performance but it's not true.
This only demonstrates that either one browser is even poorer than the other, or you're doing something wrong with your Mac (which I couldn't possibly comment on because I steer well clear of any Apple stuff, I'm merely mentioning it as a possibility). It is not the slightest testimonial of any alleged/perceived WebKit performance. If one sucks and the other is impossible to use, they have something bad in common and fingers are pointing at WebKit for good and obvious reasons.
Пламен ПейчевWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:44:58 PM
Opera stops competing and starts supporting the insane WebKit monoculture???Presto will be forgotten?Open Presto code for developers.
Alphons van WervenWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:51:28 PM
Originally posted by lassitter:
Open Presto code for developers.
If you mean releasing Presto with a permissive Open Source license: probably not going to happen. Not so much because Presto is as of yet still proprietary, but because if it were indeed disclosed a motivated community could easily use it to create something far better than any WebKit-based official Opera.
David GouldThursday, February 14, 2013 12:31:50 AM
Originally posted by woj-tek:
Originally posted by davegould:
LOL 120? I sometimes get up to 100.
Frankly, I only need 1. I can access most websites in 2-3 clicks which is fine.
Wow, good to know that you manage and that YOUR OWN poin of view dismiss the rest of the world...
I think you couldn't have misunderstood my comment more.
FleshreaperThursday, February 14, 2013 12:37:43 AM
Please opera. The one feature I want you to absolutely have in the webkit versions is the way opera does zooming. Zoom sucks in every single other browser. It just has to work like it does currently, pretty please!
PengeThursday, February 14, 2013 12:47:12 AM
Originally posted by c69:
The main question is "Will Opera now get its UI locked upon alert(), like any normal browser does ?"
Probably, yes... I hope there will be option to disable. Or userJS to disable.
Releated-questions: What about .htaccess force-download? Will we be able to open? What about the download dialog? Will be start download instantly as it is now?
Originally posted by Fleshreaper:
Zoom sucks in every single other browser.
+1
Alphons van WervenThursday, February 14, 2013 1:05:13 AM
Originally posted by Penge4:
Releated-questions: What about .htaccess force-download? Will we be able to open? What about the download dialog? Will be start download instantly as it is now?
Should be fine. Both things have absolutely nothing whatsofrackingever to do with rendering engines.
André ZangheliniThursday, February 14, 2013 2:30:19 AM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
This only demonstrates that either one browser is even poorer than the other, or you're doing something wrong with your Mac (which I couldn't possibly comment on because I steer well clear of any Apple stuff, I'm merely mentioning it as a possibility). It is not the slightest testimonial of any alleged/perceived WebKit performance. If one sucks and the other is impossible to use, they have something bad in common and fingers are pointing at WebKit for good and obvious reasons.
I don't have a Mac and share your 'away from Apple stuff'. But it's experience from a friend's Mac (On fresh install).
You're right that it doesn't proof much, but the same is say that both are bad and this is webkit fault.
Two softwares can be coded without sharing any code and both achieve the same objective. If both achieve the objective but poorly it doesn't mean the fault is the same.
IE still uses Trident and IE10 clearly humiliate IE8/7/6. It's not the best browser but its performance didn't enhanced just because they updated Trident.
I too think that the best would be make Presto open-source. If we check Opera users we can clearly see we are not the mass, we are "experienced users" (as companies see us). Opera have a way more active users compared with other browsers, and I see lot of programmers using it, and great programmers btw. In all this programmers I surely see lot of them willing to help Presto engine.
I just don't see this move as the end of the world.
dkoroskinThursday, February 14, 2013 3:53:43 AM
Please, please, PLEASE open-source Presto before you sink the ship! Your efforts should be put into a good use even if you don't plan on supporting it anymore.
It could obtain a second life as a small embeddable html engine, e.g. to build application UI using html+css (WebKit is too bloated for that).
woj-tekThursday, February 14, 2013 5:09:10 AM
Originally posted by dkoroskin:
Please, please, PLEASE open-source Presto before you sink the ship!
+1
Stephan Robert SevenyolnThursday, February 14, 2013 5:25:20 AM
Opera, please keep your download manager.
CryoburnerThursday, February 14, 2013 5:55:22 AM
Originally posted by timacheson:
So, Opera is now just Chrome with a custom UI. But Chrome is much better. There's now even less point in using Opera.
Actually, I find Chrome's user interface to be pretty bad, but its rendering engine is fine, and well-supported. Opera has a great interface, but it's not so widely used, and thus its renderer isn't officially supported by many sites. It doesn't matter how good Presto is if it doesn't have the install-base to get web developers to test their sites on it. Opera's interface combined with a widely used rendering engine seems like the best of both worlds. This isn't like years back, when Opera's renderer was clearly better than that of other browsers. When the others are nearly as good, if not better in some ways, it doesn't make sense for Opera to be expending significant resources just to duplicate functionality.
I'm fine with Opera moving to Webkit, so long as they don't significantly strip other functionality from the browser while doing so. As long as Opera retains its role as a highly customizable and feature-packed Internet suite, I'll be fine with a change of rendering engine.
QuHnoThursday, February 14, 2013 6:04:40 AM
Originally posted by morbit:
It's common_data_storage not commando_storage
yes, I knew that when I was writing it
ChristophThursday, February 14, 2013 9:06:14 AM
I didn't want to comment this, but reading all those "Are you guys insane?!"-comments I feel like I have to ^^
Don't you guys realize that this is a great opportunity for Opera? Yes, Presto isn't bad, but it's redundant. We reached a state in web specification (as pointed out in the article) nowadays, that makes it pretty clear how to implement things correctly. Now there is WebKit and Presto (and others) and they are all implementing the same standards. They are coding the same stuff into every renderer. Don't you get that it's a huge waist of resources? By switching to webkit and developing it together, they avoid doing all the work twice, are more effective, can develop it faster and have more spare resources to keep those things up-to-date that you all love about Opera and be as innovative as they used to be some time ago again.
I'm really looking forward into a bright future. It's the right way to go
earlnuclearThursday, February 14, 2013 9:09:35 AM
Well... This sucks. It was good using Oper since early 2000's I guess Its back to memory/performance disaster that Firefox is currently, as it seems to be the only way to avoid the stupid webkit.
Opera devs, why don't you just open source presto and let community help you working on it? Im willing to put spare time into it, im sure few other would as well.
SergeiThursday, February 14, 2013 9:16:12 AM
That my dream! Chrome with Opera interface:hat:
StanislavThursday, February 14, 2013 9:38:46 AM
I'm sorry for my English, of course, but could not resist ... Now on this Chrome rivet and sundry and now unique browser privratilas a clone, of which a thousand, and your pride in the 300 million users think too will go to minus ... Put finished her community for Opera SDK or another name, let at least some life support engine ... I personally do not want to sit at the next clone chrome, better move on IE ...
streunerxThursday, February 14, 2013 9:39:15 AM
@Christoph
Were is the standard? When all using the stupid webkit - prefixes, which were only designed for testing purpose.
Thats why all implementations are not as good as they could be. It was the same thing with queries like "if IE then ...". And why people have used ie6 so long, cause all sites were adapted for this browser.
Its only strategy of some browser developers to hold customers but has nothing to do with a standard.
Browsers should show errors of bad programmed websites not correct this errors.
I would agree to switch to webkit only if this prefixes and support of this in officialy versions will be killed.
The misuse of webkit's prefixes isn't the fault of webkit but the one of all of the non-standard-compliant web-developers out there. They often fail to include the correct unprefixed versions. And that's a problem Opera has always been struggling with and led me to the development of CSS PrefixR or to projects like prefix-free
linThursday, February 14, 2013 10:17:06 AM
Presto is dead,Next is ....Gecko?
Scorpion2012Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:43:02 AM
Originally posted by aza0290:
Presto is dead,Next is ....Gecko?
That's not going to happen.
morbitThursday, February 14, 2013 11:10:06 AM
Originally posted by QuHno:
Originally posted by morbit:
It's common_data_storage not commando_storage
yes, I knew that when I was writing it
Ah, that's exactly what I was afraid of, sorry for disturbing your pun
earlnuclearThursday, February 14, 2013 11:16:39 AM
Originally posted by aza0290:
Presto is dead,Next is ....Gecko?
Id rather not, its the only option left for non webkit browsers.
Zalex ;-)Thursday, February 14, 2013 11:30:34 AM
Despite all our opinions and suppositions, we should give to Opera ASA the chance to an explanation about what they gonna work to keep and what they gonna leave outside the new Opera Experience.
Great desition and huge time saver for web developers. Hope that presto developers will get jobs on Webkit development and making Opera stable
DavidThursday, February 14, 2013 1:33:33 PM
i'm quite surprised (to certain level) with this move ... and even while understanding the reasons to chose webkit then there stays question : why the Presto rendering engine isn't opened as open-source ...? who knows ... maybe it could end better than webkit ... while unification is neat, diversity is too ...
earlnuclearThursday, February 14, 2013 1:50:12 PM
Originally posted by aiphee:
Great desition and huge time saver for web developers. Hope that presto developers will get jobs on Webkit development and making Opera stable
Actually this is not, web developers should NOT be using vendor specific code. The reason for "oh my god opera doesnt work on this site" is because of crappy and lazy web devs who just appeal to the masses whether this is webkit or ie. This is an awful move for the web standards.
The misuse of webkit's prefixes isn't the fault of webkit
You might want to rethink that. The webkit developers didn't use the prefixes as they were meant but to extend the standards long-term and they failed to remove the support of the prefixes in the final versions.
We would not have this problem if all websites, that do not support the unprefixed standard, would simply fail as soon as some proietary extension to the standard (read: prefixed vendor experiment) made it into the official standard.
Prefixed extensions to the standards should only be used for test pages or test versions of the browsers. Never. In. Production. Period.
JimThursday, February 14, 2013 2:06:40 PM
Originally posted by soulcheck:
Originally posted by DitherSky:
Wish you open-source Presto then. Also will things like window.opera.defineMagicVariable will become obsolete?
This. Presto probably has a lot closed dependencies, but please do open whatever can be opened.
There are many small features like usercss the content blocked.
Chrome is not even 64 bit! And it uses windows for networking instead of Opera uses its own and has more control. Chrome didn't even have asynchronous dns until recently.
MtFRThursday, February 14, 2013 2:13:50 PM
Please release Presto as open source to the community.
The misuse of webkit's prefixes isn't the fault of webkit but the one of all of the non-standard-compliant web-developers out there. They often fail to include the correct unprefixed versions. And that's a problem Opera has always been struggling with and led me to the development of CSS PrefixR or to projects like prefix-free
Ok my fault But the only way to led them back to do their job well is that only dev versions of browser or a special mode in browser is accepting prefix.
By the way ... i like your project please don't stop it
sendler79Thursday, February 14, 2013 2:51:19 PM
Why I should continue using Opera, instead of Chrome?, Why 300m of users should continue using opera?..... Welcome back Mozilla...
mega7starWednesday, February 13, 2013 9:08:39 PM
Presto, Thank you for everything!
EneidraWednesday, February 13, 2013 9:18:51 PM
EPPMWednesday, February 13, 2013 9:25:12 PM
And don't tell me that this makes better compatibility between browsers because, at the end, is only one browser with several names.
So RIP Opera.
fritjofWednesday, February 13, 2013 9:39:39 PM
Please understand that this message hit me just as if a close relative hat a serious accident. I fear that I am going to lose Opera, and I have a very bad feeling about it. The Opera that I could relate to and identify with will be gone.
As your descision seems to be final, it's time for me to wipe off my tears and start to face the fact.
Please, please adapt Webkit to Opera's features, and not Opera to Webkit's. The features of Opera (and I mean all of them) are what makes Opera different. Changing or dropping them in favor of "compatibility" will hole out Opera's individuality and the reasons why people chose it.
But when my knowledge is right, the architecture of Webkit is far too different from Presto to allow it just being plugged in, without significant changes to Opera above and under the hood.
Just as an example of what I mean: The Dragonfly blog has been very quiet for two months now. Why continue developing Dragonfly, as Webkit already offers a website inspector?
My consequences of your descision is to keep the last Presto release, and to use it as long as possible.
Farewell, Opera. And don't let big A and big G bother you.
morbitWednesday, February 13, 2013 9:42:15 PM
Originally posted by fritjof:
According to twitter messages, there will be Dragonfly no more.Alphons van WervenWednesday, February 13, 2013 10:12:18 PM
Originally posted by morbit:
That would be a pity, but for me personally not necessarily a dealbreaker. Just like Opera is (at least until this WebKit thing goes through if it doesn't turn out to be a prank after all) kind of an unknown giant, so is FreeBSD. Occasionally having to contend with application developers who have never heard of compatibility and/or portability is part of the plight of a FreeBSDist. And to be honest, I can only commend and thank Opera Software for making the effort to provide native FreeBSD versions of Opera, which tend to work much better than the Linux versions using Linux emulation.
On the flip side, if there will be no taunting "Ha ha, got you hook line and sinker, did you really seriously think we would ever do such a thing?" press release shortly after April 1st (@Opera Software: hint: any day, including April 1st, ends at UTC-11 or earlier for all inhabited parts of the world) at least this will be a good incentive to try out some of the lesser-known surfboards before having to most probably settle on Firefox.
Erik HauboldWednesday, February 13, 2013 10:25:18 PM
Originally posted by fritjof:
well... icant debug my tablet with the webkit inspector without a cable. i can't do it by just clickin on remote-debugging and so on. there are many little things within dragonfly which made life easier and it'd be really sad to see them go
aguiadouradaWednesday, February 13, 2013 10:32:10 PM
Why should I keep on using Opera if it's gonna be another layer in top of the Chromium browser? I would be already using Chrome if I liked that.
sirnh1Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:53:08 PM
This 'not knowing' what opera features will be 'killed of' is freaking me out a bit. My browser is my most used program (besides 2 specific MMO games I play), I don't want it to change (too much)...
Originally posted by ahoj1234:
I know, but one can only hope
Originally posted by Janghou:
I'm not familiar with what parts of the browser the chrome-dev tools have access to. But (with a bit of luck), it might be possible to (re)attach it to the correct extension api.
Originally posted by Janghou:
I guess it all depends on what works the easiest for someone.
In my opinion, DF has a better looking interface, easier to find some options/buttons/etc... some icons make buttons easier to recognize (for example I think the 'step into/step over/step out' buttons in chrome aren't intuitive, but the icons that opera uses for these buttons are similar to the ones in 'Visual Studio' and since I do all my developing in 'Visual Studio' it makes it a no-brainer for me).
DF also has the options 'select an element in the page to inspect it' and 'Highligh selected element' that I keep on at all times. This makes finding a certain element pretty easy. In chrome I need to find an alement (somewhere) in the 'Elements' tab or 'right click' it and choose 'inspect element'. Yes the inspect element works, but when I have the dev tools open, I just want to 'click' on the element to automatically have it selected (while now I need to find the option in the menu).
(And I never use drag/drop or the profiling options, so I don't miss them).
WildEnteWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:00:57 PM
I never used Opera because of Presto but because it did the job better than the others (M2!). There was a time when Presto and Carakan were ahead of the rest of the pack - this is what made Webkit, Gecko and Trident good in the first place. A job well done, a sensible move.
EDIT: In this entire context, please see http://xkcd.com/1172/
MichaelWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:13:12 PM
André ZangheliniWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:18:43 PM
Download Chrome and Safari, open chrome and use a few minutes. Now try to open Safari. Chrome sucks, but Safari is impossible to use, it's extremely slow compared with Chrome. If Webkit have all the fault both would have similar performance but it's not true.
A browser is more than a webpage render, of course it's maybe around 40% of the code but it only renders the page, the way it's handled is what makes the difference.
I see people talking about remove Turbo, Link, and other Opera features. Why the move would remove this features? None even have any sense why they would use the webpage render. If they don't touch the Presto engine today, why change to webkit would change them?
The only two features I see may need changes to work with new engine would be Turbo and Dragonfly. But they won't simply cut these features, or at least Turbo. Opera have a giant market on the mobile market and simply remove Turbo would kill them. It's a marketing kill.
Constantine VesnaWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:19:31 PM
André ZangheliniWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:24:56 PM
I don't see it dependent of the JS or webpage engines, but more from the UI side.
vtomilinWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:31:35 PM
Sam WronskiWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:35:10 PM
You have the potential to kill yourselves with this release. I hope you prove us all wrong, but I worry you won't.
Alphons van WervenWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:39:32 PM
Originally posted by An-dz:
This only demonstrates that either one browser is even poorer than the other, or you're doing something wrong with your Mac (which I couldn't possibly comment on because I steer well clear of any Apple stuff, I'm merely mentioning it as a possibility). It is not the slightest testimonial of any alleged/perceived WebKit performance. If one sucks and the other is impossible to use, they have something bad in common and fingers are pointing at WebKit for good and obvious reasons.
Пламен ПейчевWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:44:58 PM
Alphons van WervenWednesday, February 13, 2013 11:51:28 PM
Originally posted by lassitter:
If you mean releasing Presto with a permissive Open Source license: probably not going to happen. Not so much because Presto is as of yet still proprietary, but because if it were indeed disclosed a motivated community could easily use it to create something far better than any WebKit-based official Opera.
David GouldThursday, February 14, 2013 12:31:50 AM
Originally posted by woj-tek:
I think you couldn't have misunderstood my comment more.FleshreaperThursday, February 14, 2013 12:37:43 AM
PengeThursday, February 14, 2013 12:47:12 AM
Originally posted by c69:
Probably, yes...
Releated-questions:
What about .htaccess force-download? Will we be able to open?
What about the download dialog? Will be start download instantly as it is now?
Originally posted by Fleshreaper:
+1
Alphons van WervenThursday, February 14, 2013 1:05:13 AM
Originally posted by Penge4:
Should be fine. Both things have absolutely nothing whatsofrackingever to do with rendering engines.André ZangheliniThursday, February 14, 2013 2:30:19 AM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
I don't have a Mac and share your 'away from Apple stuff'. But it's experience from a friend's Mac (On fresh install).
You're right that it doesn't proof much, but the same is say that both are bad and this is webkit fault.
Two softwares can be coded without sharing any code and both achieve the same objective. If both achieve the objective but poorly it doesn't mean the fault is the same.
IE still uses Trident and IE10 clearly humiliate IE8/7/6. It's not the best browser but its performance didn't enhanced just because they updated Trident.
I too think that the best would be make Presto open-source. If we check Opera users we can clearly see we are not the mass, we are "experienced users" (as companies see us).
Opera have a way more active users compared with other browsers, and I see lot of programmers using it, and great programmers btw. In all this programmers I surely see lot of them willing to help Presto engine.
I just don't see this move as the end of the world.
dkoroskinThursday, February 14, 2013 3:53:43 AM
It could obtain a second life as a small embeddable html engine, e.g. to build application UI using html+css (WebKit is too bloated for that).
woj-tekThursday, February 14, 2013 5:09:10 AM
Originally posted by dkoroskin:
+1
Stephan Robert SevenyolnThursday, February 14, 2013 5:25:20 AM
CryoburnerThursday, February 14, 2013 5:55:22 AM
Originally posted by timacheson:
Actually, I find Chrome's user interface to be pretty bad, but its rendering engine is fine, and well-supported. Opera has a great interface, but it's not so widely used, and thus its renderer isn't officially supported by many sites. It doesn't matter how good Presto is if it doesn't have the install-base to get web developers to test their sites on it. Opera's interface combined with a widely used rendering engine seems like the best of both worlds. This isn't like years back, when Opera's renderer was clearly better than that of other browsers. When the others are nearly as good, if not better in some ways, it doesn't make sense for Opera to be expending significant resources just to duplicate functionality.
I'm fine with Opera moving to Webkit, so long as they don't significantly strip other functionality from the browser while doing so. As long as Opera retains its role as a highly customizable and feature-packed Internet suite, I'll be fine with a change of rendering engine.
QuHnoThursday, February 14, 2013 6:04:40 AM
Originally posted by morbit:
yes, I knew that when I was writing it
ChristophThursday, February 14, 2013 9:06:14 AM
Don't you guys realize that this is a great opportunity for Opera?
Yes, Presto isn't bad, but it's redundant. We reached a state in web specification (as pointed out in the article) nowadays, that makes it pretty clear how to implement things correctly. Now there is WebKit and Presto (and others) and they are all implementing the same standards. They are coding the same stuff into every renderer. Don't you get that it's a huge waist of resources?
By switching to webkit and developing it together, they avoid doing all the work twice, are more effective, can develop it faster and have more spare resources to keep those things up-to-date that you all love about Opera and be as innovative as they used to be some time ago again.
I'm really looking forward into a bright future. It's the right way to go
earlnuclearThursday, February 14, 2013 9:09:35 AM
Opera devs, why don't you just open source presto and let community help you working on it? Im willing to put spare time into it, im sure few other would as well.
SergeiThursday, February 14, 2013 9:16:12 AM
StanislavThursday, February 14, 2013 9:38:46 AM
streunerxThursday, February 14, 2013 9:39:15 AM
Were is the standard? When all using the stupid webkit - prefixes, which were only designed for testing purpose.
Thats why all implementations are not as good as they could be.
It was the same thing with queries like "if IE then ...".
And why people have used ie6 so long, cause all sites were adapted for this browser.
Its only strategy of some browser developers to hold customers but has nothing to do with a standard.
Browsers should show errors of bad programmed websites not correct this errors.
I would agree to switch to webkit only if this prefixes and support of this in officialy versions will be killed.
ChristophThursday, February 14, 2013 9:53:59 AM
Originally posted by streunerx:
hereThe misuse of webkit's prefixes isn't the fault of webkit but the one of all of the non-standard-compliant web-developers out there.
They often fail to include the correct unprefixed versions. And that's a problem Opera has always been struggling with and led me to the development of CSS PrefixR or to projects like prefix-free
linThursday, February 14, 2013 10:17:06 AM
Scorpion2012Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:43:02 AM
Originally posted by aza0290:
That's not going to happen.
morbitThursday, February 14, 2013 11:10:06 AM
Originally posted by QuHno:
Ah, that's exactly what I was afraid of, sorry for disturbing your punearlnuclearThursday, February 14, 2013 11:16:39 AM
Originally posted by aza0290:
Id rather not, its the only option left for non webkit browsers.
Zalex ;-)Thursday, February 14, 2013 11:30:34 AM
we should give to Opera ASA the chance to an explanation about what they gonna work to keep and what they gonna leave outside the new Opera Experience.
zerttyThursday, February 14, 2013 12:50:43 PM
Sign the Petition!
Make Presto Opensource!
JiříThursday, February 14, 2013 1:04:02 PM
DavidThursday, February 14, 2013 1:33:33 PM
and even while understanding the reasons to chose webkit
then there stays question :
why the Presto rendering engine isn't opened as open-source ...?
who knows ... maybe it could end better than webkit ...
while unification is neat, diversity is too ...
earlnuclearThursday, February 14, 2013 1:50:12 PM
Originally posted by aiphee:
Actually this is not, web developers should NOT be using vendor specific code. The reason for "oh my god opera doesnt work on this site" is because of crappy and lazy web devs who just appeal to the masses whether this is webkit or ie. This is an awful move for the web standards.Originally posted by zertty:
Signed, this is a great idea.QuHnoThursday, February 14, 2013 1:56:09 PM
Originally posted by christoph142:
You might want to rethink that. The webkit developers didn't use the prefixes as they were meant but to extend the standards long-term and they failed to remove the support of the prefixes in the final versions.
We would not have this problem if all websites, that do not support the unprefixed standard, would simply fail as soon as some proietary extension to the standard (read: prefixed vendor experiment) made it into the official standard.
Prefixed extensions to the standards should only be used for test pages or test versions of the browsers.
Never. In. Production. Period.
JimThursday, February 14, 2013 2:06:40 PM
Originally posted by soulcheck:
There are many small features like usercss the content blocked. Chrome is not even 64 bit! And it uses windows for networking instead of Opera uses its own and has more control. Chrome didn't even have asynchronous dns until recently.MtFRThursday, February 14, 2013 2:13:50 PM
JimThursday, February 14, 2013 2:32:00 PM
Originally posted by zertty:
Signed and shared on Twitter FB and G+streunerxThursday, February 14, 2013 2:33:31 PM
Originally posted by christoph142:
Ok my fault
But the only way to led them back to do their job well is that only dev versions of browser or a special mode in browser is accepting prefix.
By the way ... i like your project please don't stop it
sendler79Thursday, February 14, 2013 2:51:19 PM
Welcome back Mozilla...