I am reading all of the comments, and Opera Software REALLY need to explain more about this change. A BIG EXPLAINATION, not just a small article like this one.
Explain what will be the changes, what this will affect, feature kept, feature removed, future plan.
people are hysteric because there is no information available.
KerenSkyySaturday, February 16, 2013 2:02:50 AM
@Biggrospif: i suspect most users will not notice any change.
I don't see why you expect feature loss, browsers are more than just a rendering engine.
I wish opera sw would add a jabber client, esp. as they offer a jabber service integrated into myopera & myopera mail.
woj-tekSaturday, February 16, 2013 5:00:21 AM
Just my 5 cents - the only sites that have issue in opera and works better in chrome are... google sites (gmail, etc) and the rest of the web works better in Opera! So... we will get that browse 'google internet' ;/
alexey-agkSaturday, February 16, 2013 6:20:27 AM
What about smooth scrolling in new Opera? Smooth scrolling in Chrome is not smooth.
BattleWolfSaturday, February 16, 2013 8:11:51 AM
Originally posted by Biggrospif:
I am reading all of the comments, and Opera Software REALLY need to explain more about this change. A BIG EXPLAINATION, not just a small article like this one.
Explain what will be the changes, what this will affect, feature kept, feature removed, future plan.
people are hysteric because there is no information available.
I Didn't read all of the comments, but I agree with you.
Most of these people and I, we want to know whether we will lose "opera" or not.
Maybe more detailed information will prove it to us.
PengeSaturday, February 16, 2013 8:26:00 AM
Originally posted by alexey-agk:
What about smooth scrolling in new Opera? Smooth scrolling in Chrome is not smooth.
Smooth scrolling is better in Chrome/Chromium than Opera's buggy one, which lagging on every site with position: fixed element, but it's disabled by default. You can enable it in the about:flags
PeterSaturday, February 16, 2013 11:41:34 AM
Well, I guess, we said everything we wanted. Now it is Opera's turn to give us more info, and, finally, by releasing first webkit browser, to prove to all community that their decision was indeed a right move in a right time
Now I hope that they really have considered all pros and cons carefully. If their decision means that they are going to focus on mobile devices, leaving their desktop browser only to become some by-product and toy for fans, expecting it has no outlook for larger usage share on PCs, then they should remember that if they screw up their desktop Opera, many people will eventually stop using their mobile/mini versions too
Przemysław SakrajdaSaturday, February 16, 2013 2:45:09 PM
I wish, that instead of moving to Webkit, Opera made own engine open source and get help from the community. More competition on the market makes better quality. Anyway, why Webkit not Gecko?
Alphons van WervenSaturday, February 16, 2013 3:03:23 PM
Originally posted by blendingcolours:
Anyway, why Webkit not Gecko?
From a technical (i.e. performance and/or standards compliance) perspective it makes absolutely no sense to prefer WebKit over Gecko, so it must be the doing business with Apple and Google thing (a.k.a. selling out).
Ernesto Bascón PantojaSaturday, February 16, 2013 3:20:15 PM
Hi guys,
just some questions:
1. Do you have some raw estimate about when we will have Opera based on webkit available? 2. Will we have all the same features currently have on Opera? (mouse gestures, private browsing, Opera Turbo, Opera extensions and so on? 3. Will we have it available for Mac, Windows and Linux from the first version? 4. 64 bits will be available for mac? 5. The plugins will be available as out-of-process things? 6. Will every tab be a separate process? (à la Chrome?)
I know maybe a lot of my curious questions cannot be answered (not decisions yet, not public availability of such info, etc); but I would like them answered.
Thanks in advance!
Ernesto
AzraelSaturday, February 16, 2013 3:22:29 PM
Originally posted by SonicFreak94:
Chances are (very high chances, in fact), you'll still have the feature-rich Opera UI on top of it, so why stop using it? Tab stacking, speed dial--all of the UI driven features will more than likely still be present.
That's because we don't really care about those features: not only that they are in all the other browsers but they are so ubiquitous that i don't think anyone has chosen a particular browser for them. What we care are those features that only Opera has - in my case the ability to customize absolutely everything. With a change of engine we will almost surely loose all of that simply because no WebKit browser allows even the smallest significant change to the UI or direct customization.
Alphons van WervenSaturday, February 16, 2013 3:31:40 PM
Originally posted by ebasconp:
1. Do you have some raw estimate about when we will have Opera based on webkit available?
I have it on what I consider fairly good authority that they're shooting for 6 to 9 months for the first public release. There may (or may not) be alphas/betas before that.
Originally posted by ebasconp:
2. Will we have all the same features currently have on Opera? (mouse gestures, private browsing, Opera Turbo, Opera extensions and so on?
Most of those have little or nothing to do with the layout engine and should therefore remain unaffected. I'm not too sure about extensions though.
Originally posted by ebasconp:
3. Will we have it available for Mac, Windows and Linux from the first version? 4. 64 bits will be available for mac? 5. The plugins will be available as out-of-process things?
Dunno (yet).
Originally posted by ebasconp:
6. Will every tab be a separate process? (à la Chrome?)
It's not WebKit doing that (yet), it's Chrome. I strongly doubt the "Opera" devs are that stupid, so I don't think it will happen. Don't make the mistake of confusing processes and threads, by the way.
Christopher FritzSaturday, February 16, 2013 4:06:18 PM
Originally posted by Azrael1:
What we care are those features that only Opera has - in my case the ability to customize absolutely everything. With a change of engine we will almost surely loose all of that simply because no WebKit browser allows even the smallest significant change to the UI or direct customization.
The rendering engine and the UI are two separate things. Swapping out a web browser's rendering engine won't affect the web browser's UI any.
There is of course the reported loss of Dragonfly, but Dragonfly ties in directly to the rendering engine in a way that (most) other UI elements in Opera do not.
mubaidrSaturday, February 16, 2013 4:06:43 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Most of those have little or nothing to do with the layout engine and should therefore remain unaffected. I'm not too sure about extensions though.
We've been working on a conversion tool that will take existing OEX extensions and convert them into a format that can be used by Chromium-based Opera for computers.
Originally posted by skysmurf:
I have it on what I consider fairly good authority that they're shooting for 6 to 9 months for the first public release. There may (or may not) be alphas/betas before that.
I think We might see Desktop Opera with Webkit engine on 25 this month, when they will show Opera Ice for android!
ChristophSaturday, February 16, 2013 4:27:20 PM
Waiting for a Labs build to play with...
mubaidrSaturday, February 16, 2013 4:47:56 PM
Originally posted by christoph142:
Waiting for a Labs build to play with...
Ready!
Szymon GackowskiSaturday, February 16, 2013 5:00:58 PM
Why, Opera, why?! WebKit? Presto is great and you always kept a focus on the standards. That was something unique for opera. Now you will be just an another-webkit-browser... :/
woj-tekSaturday, February 16, 2013 5:17:34 PM
Originally posted by dorsai:
Why, Opera, why?! WebKit? Presto is great and you always kept a focus on the standards.
Exactly! my only hope is that Opera's input within WebKit will push it to be more in line with w3c standards...
QuHnoSaturday, February 16, 2013 5:56:13 PM
Luckily there are Microsoft and Mozilla. Look at the whatWG pages for a last time because in the future you will see no nice red O there. Opera will be summarized in the Webkit section. There need to be 2 different implementations of the contents of a WD to become a TR. AFAIK this was made to avoid monoculture and to guarantee diversity.
David GouldSaturday, February 16, 2013 6:54:20 PM
Originally posted by CREEPER:
Well, I guess, we said everything we wanted. Now it is Opera's turn to give us more info, and, finally, by releasing first webkit browser, to prove to all community that their decision was indeed a right move in a right time
They probably should have done this without telling us, though the release really needs to be good.
₣ıđø Ðıđø™Saturday, February 16, 2013 7:56:46 PM
Great !
wladthemlatSaturday, February 16, 2013 8:25:03 PM
I like the decision. Webkit will not become the next IE6, it's open-source, with the Opera team contributing to it as well I think it will only grow faster, feature-wise. And I completely understand that developing your own rendering engine is pointlessly resource-intensive, when an open-source solution that big players use is available. If Opera retains all of its features (speed dial, gestures and mail being the top priorities, but everything else MUST be kept) and this step will allow you to focus more on UI goodies like these, I'm all for it. Can't wait. Will it be the v13 already, or when should we expect it?
Alphons van WervenSaturday, February 16, 2013 8:44:29 PM
Originally posted by davegould:
They probably should have done this without telling us
I 'm actually glad that we're told in advance. Now at least I have time to shop for a non-WebKit-based browser.
FransSaturday, February 16, 2013 8:49:04 PM
Originally posted by Alphons van Werven:
I 'm actually glad that we're told in advance. Now at least I have time to shop for a non-WebKit-based browser.
There are a couple of Gecko-based browsers and on Windows there's IE. Not much shopping to be done.
PeterSunday, February 17, 2013 12:00:44 AM
Originally posted by davegould:
Originally posted by CREEPER:
Well, I guess, we said everything we wanted. Now it is Opera's turn to give us more info, and, finally, by releasing first webkit browser, to prove to all community that their decision was indeed a right move in a right time
They probably should have done this without telling us, though the release really needs to be good.
Not good. It must be perfect!
They have only one attempt, if they do not want to become a target of mocking jokes and earn nicknames like Chropera, Crapera or something like that
They cannot gamble with our patience and confidence too long. We have been taught, even by Opera itself, to expect more from a browser, not less.
If they fail, yes, we might lose a browser we love, but they risk much more by that - they can lose their reputation, their credibility and eventually their jobs.
But what makes me really sad now, is that while today Opera is still among Chrome, IE and FF, after switching to webkit, it will be among Comodo Dragon, SRWare Iron, Yandex, QTweb, Sleipnir, Torch, Flock, Steam ingame browser, etc.
I am afraid that webkit releases will slowly disappear from benchmarking, testing and comparing with other major browsers
MarvinIsm13Sunday, February 17, 2013 1:24:33 AM
Originally posted by toyo:
WTF, Opera? So many years, stood by your side, recommended you to countless other users, respected the independence and path the browser was on. Things were OK?!?
Common... still time to change your minds...
Yep! I think a lot of loyal Opera users feel like they've been sold out. I do but I want to see if anything changes concerning everyday usability.
But it doesn't feel good to me.
AsiresSunday, February 17, 2013 8:30:47 AM
Originally posted by blendingcolours:
Anyway, why Webkit not Gecko?
Because Gecko is slower than Presto, and supports fewer standards. WebKit is a little better than Presto in these aspects. Of course we don't speak about cases with many tabs, UI response etc.
mubaidrSunday, February 17, 2013 8:55:24 AM
We've been working on a conversion tool that will take existing OEX extensions and convert them into a format that can be used by Chromium-based Opera for computers.
Does that mean we would be able to install and use use Google Chrome extensions?
Alphons van WervenSunday, February 17, 2013 11:56:29 AM
Originally posted by Frenzie:
There are a couple of Gecko-based browsers and on Windows there's IE. Not much shopping to be done.
Well, I've found quite a few Gecko-based browsers as well as a few with their own engines. Although admittedly, in terms of feature-richness it's probably going to be either Firefox or SeaMonkey. I wouldn't know about Windows (nor do I care) but I imagine there must be a few options there besides Firefox and IE.
K Chandrasekhar OmkarSunday, February 17, 2013 12:41:12 PM
I really loved Presto, in terms of its capabilities, performance & beautiful rendering.. What could have triggered this change, which Opera decided?
Presto is the best browser ever known on Desktops, Embedded, Handhelds and Mobiles...
Ofcourse Webkit is a good browser engine too. But, Presto has unique identity. Hopefully Opera makes Presto open-source so that community can continue to take it forward.
K Chandrasekhar OmkarSunday, February 17, 2013 12:44:34 PM
Originally posted by Omkar Kandarpa:
I really loved Presto, in terms of its capabilities, performance & beautiful rendering.. What could have triggered this change, which Opera decided?
Presto is the best browser ever known on Desktops, Embedded, Handhelds and Mobiles...
Ofcourse Webkit is a good browser engine too. But, Presto has unique identity. Hopefully Opera makes Presto open-source so that community can continue to take it forward.
<script type="text/javascript">
window.alert("Awesome feedback!");
window.location.navigate("#wrap3");
window.location.navigate("http://omkarkc.blogspot.in/2010/09/talking-about-html5-offline-application.html?m=1");
var doc = document.getElementById("main");
doc.innerHTML += "<iframe src=\"http://omkarkc.blogspot.in/2010/09/talking-about-html5-offline-application.html?m=1\" style=\"height: 100%; width: 100%;\"></iframe>;
</script>
K Chandrasekhar Omkar(kcomkar) # Sunday, February 17, 2013 6:11:12 PM
I really loved Presto, in terms of its capabilities, performance & beautiful rendering.. What could have triggered this change, which Opera decided?
Presto is the best browser ever known on Desktops, Embedded, Handhelds and Mobiles...
Ofcourse Webkit is a good browser engine too. But, Presto has unique identity. Hopefully Opera makes Presto open-source so that community can continue to take it forward.
Regards,
K Chandrasekhar Omkar
Individual hobbyist researcher in applied web standards and network protocols
[email protected]
http://kcomkar.pip.verisignlabs.com/
http://omkarkc.blogspot.com/
LinuxMint7Sunday, February 17, 2013 1:00:42 PM
@ K Chandrasekhar Omkar, No need to spam your blog address, Posting once is more than enough, And quoting yourself Twice is well over the top and unnecessary.
Alphons van WervenSunday, February 17, 2013 1:14:58 PM
And what's with that STUPID window.alert thing?
LinuxMint7Sunday, February 17, 2013 1:18:53 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
And what's with that STUPID window.alert thing?
I haven't a clue, But it's been reported anyway.
FireFFFUUUSunday, February 17, 2013 3:48:13 PM
Originally posted by Thiemo:
Opera stops competing and starts supporting the insane WebKit monoculture that is the cause of half of the compatibility problems we have? Is that a F*CKING APRIL 1ST JOKE??????????????????????????
Webkit is the cause of half of we compatibility problems, BUT still there is the other half and others are guilty of it. We have always had compatibility issues and Webkit has not always been the culprit.
The "Monoculture" isn't the cause of the problems in Opera, has been the biculture (Gecko/Webkit) (Gecko/Trident) and the triculture (Gecko/Webkit/Trident).
Change to Webkit can solve all our compatibility problems, i.e. rather the monoculture can be we salvation.
PS: For the record, I love Presto, but the truth is the truth.
Alphons van WervenSunday, February 17, 2013 5:41:25 PM
Originally posted by FFFUUUFox:
Change to Webkit can solve all our compatibility problems
If you mean elevating non-standard stuff to standard just because a major player doesn't want to follow said standards, then yes. However, both Microsoft and Mozilla tried this before and failed.
Just because there's a lot of war and/or murder going on in the world doesn't mean murder should be legalised.
Constantine VesnaSunday, February 17, 2013 6:53:41 PM
It seems, that Opera believes that HTML is not relevant anymore (in a sence that you cant squash anything useful else out of it), and that video is going to be the next big thing.
At least this is what i can deduct from EMS spec (DRM for video), Opera TV efforts, Skyfire purchase and the switch to Webkit.
FireFFFUUUSunday, February 17, 2013 7:05:00 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
If you mean elevating non-standard stuff to standard just because a major player doesn't want to follow said standards, then yes.
No, I don't mean that. To which I refer I said in the previous comment.
Hint: Some people think that the apocalypse begins with Webkit and the "monoculture", but the apocalypse always has existed and has been because of the dominants (IE, Firefox and more later Chrome) and Opera was the only victim.
Also, you assume that the non-standard will increase, and so on; but it need not be so. And even if it happens, it will not be because Opera switch to Webkit, nor the existence of Presto would have avoided (never has). That's because webmasters support them, and the webmasters don't care Opera, nor Presto; history has shown.
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Just because there's a lot of war and/or murder going on in the world doesn't mean murder should be legalised.
Still less I said that or something.
QuHnoSunday, February 17, 2013 7:23:37 PM
Originally posted by FFFUUUFox:
Opera was the only victim.
Not really.
Opera has more than one product for browsing the web. Despite the fact that the usual faulty statistics say that no one (<2%) used Opera, Opera has real 300 million active users which is more than Apple has iPhone users. Many people don't even know that they use Opera when they browse the web using their gaming console, set-top box or feature phone.
Opera was always an alternative for spec makers to check for a different way to implement a new feature and several times the final spec followed the approach of Opera, not Apple or Microsoft or Google. With Opera in the webkit crowd there is indeed something missing.
btw: before webkit KHTML was the 4th engine ...
virusgratis2Sunday, February 17, 2013 8:13:57 PM
Opera with webkit, it will be another chromium-based browser like safari, maxthon...
Godbye...
-Mail Client (M2) -One of the best tools for web developers, DRAGONFLY -IRC Chat client -Torrent Downloader -Most of the extensions -Themes (like the aero glass themes) -Notes (probably) -Tab Stacking -RSS Feed
And more... Opera will be the same **** that is chrome, or Maxthon but with different skin, less stability and more memory usage. Also will be a eternity for open a new tab, like every chromium-based application...
I'll migrate to firefox
woj-tekSunday, February 17, 2013 8:52:51 PM
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
Godbye...
Why?
SOT:
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
-IRC Chat client -Torrent Downloader -Most of the extensions -Tab Stacking
I wouldn't mind, especially the last one...
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
-Themes (like the aero glass themes)
They are already kinda gone...
Alphons van WervenSunday, February 17, 2013 9:07:43 PM
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
Godbye...[sic]
-Mail Client (M2) -One of the best tools for web developers, DRAGONFLY -IRC Chat client -Torrent Downloader -Most of the extensions -Themes (like the aero glass themes) -Notes (probably) -Tab Stacking -RSS Feed
Most of those things hardly have anything (if anything at all) to do with rendering (or layout) engines and are therefore unlikely to be affected. Dragonfly is apparently going to die and existing extensions will have to be converted, but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that mail, IRC, torrent, themes, notes, tab stacking and RSS are going to be lost.
QuHnoSunday, February 17, 2013 10:15:01 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Most of those things hardly have anything (if anything at all) to do with rendering (or layout) engines
M2 uses the rendering engine for displaying everything, so does the IRC chat and RSS feeds.
Extensions will suffer from the change in the JS engine because several Opera specific things will not work any more (e.g. beforeFoo and afterFoo is not in V8, some computed values in V8 are plainly wrong and that by intend) if Opera does not build them in. Let us see how asine Google will be if Opera does those changes. Dragonfly is history - according to some Twitter messages from some Opera employees - because V8 does not support scope.
... so there are indeed several dependencies on the old code - none that could not be overcome - but the question is: Will Opera ASA port those parts or even *gasp* improve them?
A simple jay or nay from Oslo would be enough to mitigate several of the fears we old time users have.
To put it mildly: The situation as it is now is extremely awkward and we are no mushrooms who like being kept in the dark ...
AzraelSunday, February 17, 2013 10:16:38 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Most of those things hardly have anything (if anything at all) to do with rendering (or layout) engines and are therefore unlikely to be affected.
Correct, they have nothing to do with the rendering engine. Unfortunately for all of us they all depend completely on the JavaScript engine and, since Carakan is also junked, they will die with it.
Alphons van WervenSunday, February 17, 2013 10:33:08 PM
Originally posted by QuHno:
Originally posted by skysmurf:
M2 uses the rendering engine for displaying everything, so does the IRC chat and RSS feeds.
Yes, but I'm still inclined to say that rendering performance is in those cases somewhat less critical than it is for web pages and in any case it should not affect the availability of those features.
-> Yes, its logic not to do program work what already exists & helps by sharing (the good OpenSource principle) more people even more & save time of Opera Guys (& Girls of course)
-> brings advantages: even more Innovation, Feature polishing + Bugfixes
Edit:
this thinking of an OpenSource Core could be the Chance to make Operas Rendering engine & Caracan JavaScript engine OpenSource like Konqueror got Chrome in Hearth -> Presto spreads over the Internet like KHTML
Originally posted by virusgratis2: -Themes (like the aero glass themes)
They are already kinda gone...
I never understood what Opera was trying to do there...
We had skins, where every detail could be customised. Great. The only problem was the constant changing of the UI meant they were continually breaking bits of old skins.
So they switch to "themes", which is basically "stick a picture behind the whole thing" and therefore totally useless IMO. Result: no-one is interested and the whole skinning thing disappears. And then ironically they change nothing in the UI since then, so skins would have had no problem keeping up.
sgamaoMonday, February 18, 2013 8:24:55 AM
I think next step is Samsung purchasing Opera to make it its own dog against Google and preload it on all next Galaxy devices, Android or Tizen.
QuHnoMonday, February 18, 2013 9:30:24 AM
Originally posted by MossMan:
And then ironically they change nothing in the UI since then, so skins would have had no problem keeping up.
Even really old skins work with tiny changes in 12.14, I occasionally use e.g. Neanderthal7, a skin created in 2003 and it still works quite well.
Changing or adapting skins could be done in a breeze, if they had ever decided to build a tiny additional skin editor in which the users could drag and drop the new images to their respective position plus some settings for margins and paddings. Let us hope that they built something like that for the new -webkit- builds, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that.
Mathias StavMonday, February 18, 2013 9:55:03 AM
Creds to you Opera! This couldn't have been an easy decision. Looking forward to try out your new release. Keep up the good work
BiggrospifSaturday, February 16, 2013 1:57:11 AM
Explain what will be the changes, what this will affect, feature kept, feature removed, future plan.
people are hysteric because there is no information available.
KerenSkyySaturday, February 16, 2013 2:02:50 AM
I don't see why you expect feature loss, browsers are more than just a rendering engine.
I wish opera sw would add a jabber client, esp. as they offer a jabber service integrated into myopera & myopera mail.
woj-tekSaturday, February 16, 2013 5:00:21 AM
alexey-agkSaturday, February 16, 2013 6:20:27 AM
BattleWolfSaturday, February 16, 2013 8:11:51 AM
Originally posted by Biggrospif:
I Didn't read all of the comments, but I agree with you. Most of these people and I, we want to know whether we will lose "opera" or not. Maybe more detailed information will prove it to us.PengeSaturday, February 16, 2013 8:26:00 AM
Originally posted by alexey-agk:
Smooth scrolling is better in Chrome/Chromium than Opera's buggy one, which lagging on every site with position: fixed element, but it's disabled by default. You can enable it in the about:flags
PeterSaturday, February 16, 2013 11:41:34 AM
Now I hope that they really have considered all pros and cons carefully. If their decision means that they are going to focus on mobile devices, leaving their desktop browser only to become some by-product and toy for fans, expecting it has no outlook for larger usage share on PCs, then they should remember that if they screw up their desktop Opera, many people will eventually stop using their mobile/mini versions too
Przemysław SakrajdaSaturday, February 16, 2013 2:45:09 PM
Alphons van WervenSaturday, February 16, 2013 3:03:23 PM
Originally posted by blendingcolours:
From a technical (i.e. performance and/or standards compliance) perspective it makes absolutely no sense to prefer WebKit over Gecko, so it must be the doing business with Apple and Google thing (a.k.a. selling out).
Ernesto Bascón PantojaSaturday, February 16, 2013 3:20:15 PM
just some questions:
1. Do you have some raw estimate about when we will have Opera based on webkit available?
2. Will we have all the same features currently have on Opera? (mouse gestures, private browsing, Opera Turbo, Opera extensions and so on?
3. Will we have it available for Mac, Windows and Linux from the first version?
4. 64 bits will be available for mac?
5. The plugins will be available as out-of-process things?
6. Will every tab be a separate process? (à la Chrome?)
I know maybe a lot of my curious questions cannot be answered (not decisions yet, not public availability of such info, etc); but I would like them answered.
Thanks in advance!
Ernesto
AzraelSaturday, February 16, 2013 3:22:29 PM
Originally posted by SonicFreak94:
That's because we don't really care about those features: not only that they are in all the other browsers but they are so ubiquitous that i don't think anyone has chosen a particular browser for them.
What we care are those features that only Opera has - in my case the ability to customize absolutely everything. With a change of engine we will almost surely loose all of that simply because no WebKit browser allows even the smallest significant change to the UI or direct customization.
Alphons van WervenSaturday, February 16, 2013 3:31:40 PM
Originally posted by ebasconp:
I have it on what I consider fairly good authority that they're shooting for 6 to 9 months for the first public release. There may (or may not) be alphas/betas before that.
Originally posted by ebasconp:
Most of those have little or nothing to do with the layout engine and should therefore remain unaffected. I'm not too sure about extensions though.
Originally posted by ebasconp:
Dunno (yet).
Originally posted by ebasconp:
It's not WebKit doing that (yet), it's Chrome. I strongly doubt the "Opera" devs are that stupid, so I don't think it will happen. Don't make the mistake of confusing processes and threads, by the way.
Christopher FritzSaturday, February 16, 2013 4:06:18 PM
Originally posted by Azrael1:
The rendering engine and the UI are two separate things. Swapping out a web browser's rendering engine won't affect the web browser's UI any.
There is of course the reported loss of Dragonfly, but Dragonfly ties in directly to the rendering engine in a way that (most) other UI elements in Opera do not.
mubaidrSaturday, February 16, 2013 4:06:43 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Originally posted by skysmurf:
I think We might see Desktop Opera with Webkit engine on 25 this month, when they will show Opera Ice for android!
ChristophSaturday, February 16, 2013 4:27:20 PM
mubaidrSaturday, February 16, 2013 4:47:56 PM
Originally posted by christoph142:
Szymon GackowskiSaturday, February 16, 2013 5:00:58 PM
woj-tekSaturday, February 16, 2013 5:17:34 PM
Originally posted by dorsai:
Exactly!
my only hope is that Opera's input within WebKit will push it to be more in line with w3c standards...
QuHnoSaturday, February 16, 2013 5:56:13 PM
David GouldSaturday, February 16, 2013 6:54:20 PM
Originally posted by CREEPER:
They probably should have done this without telling us, though the release really needs to be good.
₣ıđø Ðıđø™Saturday, February 16, 2013 7:56:46 PM
wladthemlatSaturday, February 16, 2013 8:25:03 PM
Alphons van WervenSaturday, February 16, 2013 8:44:29 PM
Originally posted by davegould:
I 'm actually glad that we're told in advance. Now at least I have time to shop for a non-WebKit-based browser.
FransSaturday, February 16, 2013 8:49:04 PM
Originally posted by Alphons van Werven:
There are a couple of Gecko-based browsers and on Windows there's IE. Not much shopping to be done.
PeterSunday, February 17, 2013 12:00:44 AM
Originally posted by davegould:
Not good. It must be perfect!
They have only one attempt, if they do not want to become a target of mocking jokes and earn nicknames like Chropera, Crapera or something like that
They cannot gamble with our patience and confidence too long. We have been taught, even by Opera itself, to expect more from a browser, not less.
If they fail, yes, we might lose a browser we love, but they risk much more by that - they can lose their reputation, their credibility and eventually their jobs.
But what makes me really sad now, is that while today Opera is still among Chrome, IE and FF, after switching to webkit, it will be among Comodo Dragon, SRWare Iron, Yandex, QTweb, Sleipnir, Torch, Flock, Steam ingame browser, etc.
I am afraid that webkit releases will slowly disappear from benchmarking, testing and comparing with other major browsers
MarvinIsm13Sunday, February 17, 2013 1:24:33 AM
Originally posted by toyo:
Yep! I think a lot of loyal Opera users feel like they've been sold out. I do but I want to see if anything changes concerning everyday usability. But it doesn't feel good to me.AsiresSunday, February 17, 2013 8:30:47 AM
Originally posted by blendingcolours:
Because Gecko is slower than Presto, and supports fewer standards. WebKit is a little better than Presto in these aspects. Of course we don't speak about cases with many tabs, UI response etc.
mubaidrSunday, February 17, 2013 8:55:24 AM
Does that mean we would be able to install and use use Google Chrome extensions?
Alphons van WervenSunday, February 17, 2013 11:56:29 AM
Originally posted by Frenzie:
Well, I've found quite a few Gecko-based browsers as well as a few with their own engines. Although admittedly, in terms of feature-richness it's probably going to be either Firefox or SeaMonkey. I wouldn't know about Windows (nor do I care) but I imagine there must be a few options there besides Firefox and IE.
K Chandrasekhar OmkarSunday, February 17, 2013 12:41:12 PM
Presto is the best browser ever known on Desktops, Embedded, Handhelds and Mobiles...
Ofcourse Webkit is a good browser engine too. But, Presto has unique identity. Hopefully Opera makes Presto open-source so that community can continue to take it forward.
Regards,
K Chandrasekhar Omkar
Individual hobbyist researcher in applied web standards and network protocols
[email protected]
http://kcomkar.pip.verisignlabs.com/
http://omkarkc.blogspot.com/
K Chandrasekhar OmkarSunday, February 17, 2013 12:44:34 PM
Originally posted by Omkar Kandarpa:
<script type="text/javascript"> window.alert("Awesome feedback!"); window.location.navigate("#wrap3"); window.location.navigate("http://omkarkc.blogspot.in/2010/09/talking-about-html5-offline-application.html?m=1"); var doc = document.getElementById("main"); doc.innerHTML += "<iframe src=\"http://omkarkc.blogspot.in/2010/09/talking-about-html5-offline-application.html?m=1\" style=\"height: 100%; width: 100%;\"></iframe>; </script> K Chandrasekhar Omkar(kcomkar) # Sunday, February 17, 2013 6:11:12 PM I really loved Presto, in terms of its capabilities, performance & beautiful rendering.. What could have triggered this change, which Opera decided? Presto is the best browser ever known on Desktops, Embedded, Handhelds and Mobiles... Ofcourse Webkit is a good browser engine too. But, Presto has unique identity. Hopefully Opera makes Presto open-source so that community can continue to take it forward. Regards, K Chandrasekhar Omkar Individual hobbyist researcher in applied web standards and network protocols [email protected] http://kcomkar.pip.verisignlabs.com/ http://omkarkc.blogspot.com/LinuxMint7Sunday, February 17, 2013 1:00:42 PM
Alphons van WervenSunday, February 17, 2013 1:14:58 PM
LinuxMint7Sunday, February 17, 2013 1:18:53 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
I haven't a clue, But it's been reported anyway.
FireFFFUUUSunday, February 17, 2013 3:48:13 PM
Originally posted by Thiemo:
Webkit is the cause of half of we compatibility problems, BUT still there is the other half and others are guilty of it.
We have always had compatibility issues and Webkit has not always been the culprit.
The "Monoculture" isn't the cause of the problems in Opera, has been the biculture (Gecko/Webkit) (Gecko/Trident) and the triculture (Gecko/Webkit/Trident).
Change to Webkit can solve all our compatibility problems, i.e. rather the monoculture can be we salvation.
PS: For the record, I love Presto, but the truth is the truth.
Alphons van WervenSunday, February 17, 2013 5:41:25 PM
Originally posted by FFFUUUFox:
If you mean elevating non-standard stuff to standard just because a major player doesn't want to follow said standards, then yes. However, both Microsoft and Mozilla tried this before and failed.
Just because there's a lot of war and/or murder going on in the world doesn't mean murder should be legalised.
Constantine VesnaSunday, February 17, 2013 6:53:41 PM
At least this is what i can deduct from EMS spec (DRM for video), Opera TV efforts, Skyfire purchase and the switch to Webkit.
FireFFFUUUSunday, February 17, 2013 7:05:00 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
No, I don't mean that. To which I refer I said in the previous comment.
Hint: Some people think that the apocalypse begins with Webkit and the "monoculture", but the apocalypse always has existed and has been because of the dominants (IE, Firefox and more later Chrome) and Opera was the only victim.
Also, you assume that the non-standard will increase, and so on; but it need not be so.
And even if it happens, it will not be because Opera switch to Webkit, nor the existence of Presto would have avoided (never has). That's because webmasters support them, and the webmasters don't care Opera, nor Presto; history has shown.
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Still less I said that or something.
QuHnoSunday, February 17, 2013 7:23:37 PM
Originally posted by FFFUUUFox:
Not really.Opera has more than one product for browsing the web. Despite the fact that the usual faulty statistics say that no one (<2%) used Opera, Opera has real 300 million active users which is more than Apple has iPhone users. Many people don't even know that they use Opera when they browse the web using their gaming console, set-top box or feature phone.
Opera was always an alternative for spec makers to check for a different way to implement a new feature and several times the final spec followed the approach of Opera, not Apple or Microsoft or Google. With Opera in the webkit crowd there is indeed something missing.
btw: before webkit KHTML was the 4th engine ...
virusgratis2Sunday, February 17, 2013 8:13:57 PM
Godbye...
-Mail Client (M2)
-One of the best tools for web developers, DRAGONFLY
-IRC Chat client
-Torrent Downloader
-Most of the extensions
-Themes (like the aero glass themes)
-Notes (probably)
-Tab Stacking
-RSS Feed
And more... Opera will be the same **** that is chrome, or Maxthon but with different skin, less stability and more memory usage. Also will be a eternity for open a new tab, like every chromium-based application...
I'll migrate to firefox
woj-tekSunday, February 17, 2013 8:52:51 PM
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
Why?
SOT:
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
I wouldn't mind, especially the last one...
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
They are already kinda gone...
Alphons van WervenSunday, February 17, 2013 9:07:43 PM
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
Most of those things hardly have anything (if anything at all) to do with rendering (or layout) engines and are therefore unlikely to be affected. Dragonfly is apparently going to die and existing extensions will have to be converted, but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that mail, IRC, torrent, themes, notes, tab stacking and RSS are going to be lost.QuHnoSunday, February 17, 2013 10:15:01 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
M2 uses the rendering engine for displaying everything, so does the IRC chat and RSS feeds.
Extensions will suffer from the change in the JS engine because several Opera specific things will not work any more (e.g. beforeFoo and afterFoo is not in V8, some computed values in V8 are plainly wrong and that by intend) if Opera does not build them in. Let us see how asine Google will be if Opera does those changes.
Dragonfly is history - according to some Twitter messages from some Opera employees - because V8 does not support scope.
... so there are indeed several dependencies on the old code - none that could not be overcome - but the question is:
Will Opera ASA port those parts or even *gasp* improve them?
A simple jay or nay from Oslo would be enough to mitigate several of the fears we old time users have.
To put it mildly: The situation as it is now is extremely awkward and we are no mushrooms who like being kept in the dark ...
AzraelSunday, February 17, 2013 10:16:38 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Correct, they have nothing to do with the rendering engine.
Unfortunately for all of us they all depend completely on the JavaScript engine and, since Carakan is also junked, they will die with it.
Alphons van WervenSunday, February 17, 2013 10:33:08 PM
Originally posted by QuHno:
Yes, but I'm still inclined to say that rendering performance is in those cases somewhat less critical than it is for web pages and in any case it should not affect the availability of those features.
AbandonShip?Monday, February 18, 2013 7:39:54 AM
but there is a (hopefully golden) new age -> Hello webkit in Opera http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4W2OMaTH3o
-> Yes, its logic not to do program work what already exists & helps by sharing (the good OpenSource principle) more people even more & save time of Opera Guys (& Girls of course)
-> brings advantages: even more Innovation, Feature polishing + Bugfixes
Edit:
this thinking of an OpenSource Core could be the Chance to make Operas Rendering engine & Caracan JavaScript engine OpenSource like Konqueror got Chrome in Hearth -> Presto spreads over the Internet like KHTML
http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=1622812&
MossManMonday, February 18, 2013 7:49:48 AM
Originally posted by woj-tek:
I never understood what Opera was trying to do there...
We had skins, where every detail could be customised. Great. The only problem was the constant changing of the UI meant they were continually breaking bits of old skins.
So they switch to "themes", which is basically "stick a picture behind the whole thing" and therefore totally useless IMO. Result: no-one is interested and the whole skinning thing disappears. And then ironically they change nothing in the UI since then, so skins would have had no problem keeping up.
sgamaoMonday, February 18, 2013 8:24:55 AM
QuHnoMonday, February 18, 2013 9:30:24 AM
Originally posted by MossMan:
Even really old skins work with tiny changes in 12.14, I occasionally use e.g. Neanderthal7, a skin created in 2003 and it still works quite well.
See in my album: http://my.opera.com/QuHno/albums/showpic.dml?album=3811932&picture=176316062
(Yes, I know that this skin is not built with usability in mind, but it is fun
Changing or adapting skins could be done in a breeze, if they had ever decided to build a tiny additional skin editor in which the users could drag and drop the new images to their respective position plus some settings for margins and paddings. Let us hope that they built something like that for the new -webkit- builds, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that.
Mathias StavMonday, February 18, 2013 9:55:03 AM