We would not have this problem if all websites, that do not support the unprefixed standard, would simply fail as soon as some proietary extension to the standard (read: prefixed vendor experiment) made it into the official standard.
Exactly. -moz- and -o- prefixes have been removed. -webkit prefixes are still working. Why is that? Clearly not to promote standards.
Alphons van WervenThursday, February 14, 2013 2:58:20 PM
Originally posted by zertty:
Sign the Petition!
Make Presto Opensource!
Signed, although I don't expect Opera Software to bite. They'd be creating their own competition.
morbitThursday, February 14, 2013 3:15:11 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
They'd be creating their own competition.
Maybe not, if old /*nix users would go away regardless, and new/Win ones caring only for UI/skin on top of chromium would stay too.
But I agree, there is only small chance. If Opera would want to go open source, they would do it few years ago, starting with public bug track... And it clearly wasn't in the policy then.
André ZangheliniThursday, February 14, 2013 3:37:47 PM
Originally posted by christoph142:
The misuse of webkit's prefixes isn't the fault of webkit but the one of all of the non-standard-compliant web-developers out there. They often fail to include the correct unprefixed versions. And that's a problem Opera has always been struggling with and led me to the development of CSS PrefixR or to projects like prefix-free
And why people have used ie6 so long, cause all sites were adapted for this browser.
Its only strategy of some browser developers to hold customers but has nothing to do with a standard.
QFT. Developers complain about IE6 and IE7, but still create websites that work on them.
Originally posted by streunerx:
Browsers should show errors of bad programmed websites not correct this errors.
I would agree to switch to webkit only if this prefixes and support of this in officialy versions will be killed.
+1, something like: "This website is badly developed, we fixed it for you but don't think about contracting who created it".
kapsiThursday, February 14, 2013 3:55:12 PM
That's surprising...what about Opera's hardware acceleration we waited for so long?
YongShunThursday, February 14, 2013 4:07:57 PM
Disappointed if Opera does not somewhat push for hardware aceeleration.
I guess Firefox might be the one gaining in the near future
Alphons van WervenThursday, February 14, 2013 4:50:58 PM
Originally posted by An-dz:
something like: "This website is badly developed, we fixed it for you but don't think about contracting who created it".
Every browser should have that
d4rkn1ghtThursday, February 14, 2013 5:00:09 PM
Originally posted by olivir:
No more Opera Unite, no more Presto... the next step is no more Opera ?! I am sad you never met the success you deserve, Opera was a so good product :/
Exactly. -moz- and -o- prefixes have been removed. -webkit prefixes are still working. Why is that?
That is a very good question. I'd like to hear the answer - or better:
I'd like to see Opera act against vendor prefixes in webkit finals, especially now, that they are a part of the happy webkit family.
(If you can't change something, try to embrace it and do something productive with it.)
kapsiThursday, February 14, 2013 5:59:26 PM
Originally posted by earlnuclear:
Originally posted by aza0290:
Presto is dead,Next is ....Gecko?
Id rather not, its the only option left for non webkit browsers.
We'll always have Internet Explorer...
Alphons van WervenThursday, February 14, 2013 6:12:42 PM
Originally posted by kapsi:
We'll always have Internet Explorer...
For what exactly? Recent versions are no longer available for the Mac (not that I care, but still) and Microsoft's brief attempt at releasing MSIE for a few UNIX platforms (I seem to recall HP-UX being one of them) couldn't even be taken seriously. Current incarnations of Internet Explorer are for Windows only and therefore completely and utterly useless to anyone who's not on Windows.
coolclerkThursday, February 14, 2013 7:13:47 PM
I don't think that this is a step in the right direction. Opera is not Chromium and there are enough WebKit shells. Presto is quite good rendering engine and the death of Presto means to me death of Opera. We could be brought into a situation of total domination of one technology, one rendering engine - it means nothing good. The browser is not only the shell, not only the GUI, but also technologies behind it. What would differ Opera from the other browsers? The engine is responsible for the experience of the users too, not just the GUI. p.s I signed the petition. I rather prefer open source Presto than dead Presto.
Igor Isaias BanlianThursday, February 14, 2013 9:38:00 PM
Please donate Presto engine to the Free Software community, licensing it under GPL v2 or v3! We will continue to develop it and make a new free (as in freedom) browser based on it! You have nothing to lose, our browser is for niche of users and will not be competing at the Opera, will serve only to users who, like me, want to continue using the Presto engine, whatever the cost!
We will not use your patents, just his Presto engine!
If you do not want to donate the Presto engine for community, I will make a big petition to convince them to do it!
Regards, Igor Isaias Banlian
LinuxMint7Thursday, February 14, 2013 9:54:49 PM
Originally posted by IgorIsaiasBanlian:
I will make a big petition to convince them to do it!
Thanks for informing me about this, I've already signed the petition now!
Regards, Igor Isaias Banlian
Рыжков АлексейThursday, February 14, 2013 11:13:28 PM
It is bad, but we will see about that: if it is be good - it's ok. if it's suck - i can't see where I'm going to land... IceDragon? Arora?
Michael FadelyFriday, February 15, 2013 3:09:01 AM
It's amusing how many people are suddenly questioning why they should use Opera after this. Webkit is simply the powerhouse behind the UI--you know, the thing that renders the pages.
Chances are (very high chances, in fact), you'll still have the feature-rich Opera UI on top of it, so why stop using it? Tab stacking, speed dial--all of the UI driven features will more than likely still be present.
I just can't fathom what keeps giving everyone the idea that it's "just chrome" when it's so much more. Chrome has an oversimplified UI designed for... well, people who can't figure out a UI! Opera on the other hand, has a complex UI which is fantastic for multitasking. I honestly can't say for any other browser--although Firefox has the right idea in this regard.
By making this change, as they said, they can focus more on this kind of thing rather than trying to just get it to render things properly and duplicating things that have already been done time and time again.
tl;dr: You're looking at it the wrong way! Opera will still be Opera, just with a different powerhouse behind the UI.
Christopher FritzFriday, February 15, 2013 3:26:13 AM
For those worried about the performance hit on having many tabs open, I find the light-weight Webkit-based Rekonq can easily handle about 60 tabs using half the RAM of Opera with 40 open, and Rekonq's tab switching is much faster. That shows me that Webkit likely won't be a resource burden. Of course, I don't know how much of Opera's memory use and relative slowness (compared with Rekonq) is related to Presto, and how much is the browser itself.
I'm sad to see Presto go, but as long as the Opera feature-set doesn't change in any major impacting way for me, I don't see any reason for me to stop using Opera in favor of another browser. Dragonfly will be missed as well; though I don't do web dev anymore, there's the occasional helping others with some troubleshooting. Dragonfly's been quite nice for that.
oerg866Friday, February 15, 2013 6:47:31 AM
The last really good and unique browser is now going down the toilet. Time to find something else.
Good Job, Opera.
PeterFriday, February 15, 2013 10:52:29 AM
There are only four major browsers for Windows - IE, Chrome, FF and Opera.
Opera's community might be small in numbers, but remember, these users chose it freely and consciously, they neither found Opera installed in his/her computer nor it was "recommended" to them to install it by some web sites and services.
Each of these browsers uses its own engine. Maybe this is the main reason they all belong to "Mighty Four". With Opera abandoning its unique Presto, it will fall to category of RockMelt, SRWare Iron, Yandex, Comodo Dragon, with all respect to their developers, and other clones which most of us has never heard about.
But that's just my opinion. Call it nostalgia, since I use Opera as my main browser for 13 years. If Opera thinks that Presto is inferior to Webkit, does not like it or does not want to use it anymore, please, make it open source
Leonardo Franchi ZeclhynsckiFriday, February 15, 2013 11:02:24 AM
I understand the decision, but also i'm very disappointed, this means i'll keep the last working version of Opera with presto forever, until it become an "IE 6", if I wanted webkit I would use Chromium.
coolclerkFriday, February 15, 2013 12:21:20 PM
Originally posted by CREEPER:
There are only four major browsers for Windows - IE, Chrome, FF and Opera.
Opera's community might be small in numbers, but remember, these users chose it freely and consciously, they neither found Opera installed in his/her computer nor it was "recommended" to them to install it by some web sites and services
Opera community maybe is small in number, but consisted of people that really know why they chosen Opera. It's maybe not so big in numbers, but united and solid
Originally posted by SonicFreak94:
You're looking at it the wrong way! Opera will still be Opera, just with a different powerhouse behind the UI.
When you replace the engine of your car with other one, you will never feel the same, it would never be the same experience, nor the same behavior.
morbitFriday, February 15, 2013 12:58:15 PM
Originally posted by chris-fritz:
For those worried about the performance hit on having many tabs open, I find the light-weight Webkit-based Rekonq can easily handle about 60 tabs using half the RAM of Opera with 40 open, and Rekonq's tab switching is much faster.
surf is really bare-bones webkit engine 'browser' and I don't think it has really stellar performance, but maybe I'm mistaken.
Cinisello BalsamoFriday, February 15, 2013 1:23:37 PM
Rip REAL Opera browser
Alphons van WervenFriday, February 15, 2013 2:03:59 PM
Originally posted by SonicFreak94:
You're looking at it the wrong way! Opera will still be Opera, just with a different powerhouse behind the UI.
That "powerhouse" is a big part of what makes (made) Opera Opera.
■Friday, February 15, 2013 3:08:13 PM
And now i know why Jon Stephenson von Tetzchner left Opera, saying he does not approve where Opera is heading...
Opera will not be Opera anymore, it will become another Chrome clone, that soon will be lost in translation and forgotten.
I guess the needful is done...
vux777Friday, February 15, 2013 4:09:08 PM
We should wait with criticizing this move from Opera. In my opinion, this could launch Opera pretty high. UI is the best from all others, smoothness, mouse gestures, tabs and side bar responding, speed dial, notes (my favorite), customizing ..... With WebKit, only reason why Opera is buggy is gone. And advantages from above are not something that other browsers can reach easily. If this turn out to be bad move, there is always Presto to turn back to.
I personally can't wait to see Opera on WebKit, especially because this last snapshot/version is crashing like hell.... (think that FB connect is problem)
Opera dev's
s/ashFriday, February 15, 2013 5:05:36 PM
Originally posted by vux777:
...smoothness...
This. Is the main reason why I use Opera. Hopefully WebKit won't affect it that much. I could not fin one single WebKit-based browser that has Opera's UI smoothness. All of them seem to be capped at ~25fps, whereas Opera 's UI is rendered at 60fps (measured with Fraps).
JanghouFriday, February 15, 2013 6:35:48 PM
Originally posted by sirnh1:
In my opinion, DF has a better looking interface, easier to find some options/buttons/etc...
Yes, I use Dragonfly daily, and I like the Interface and a lot of things,
Originally posted by sirnh1:
And I never use drag/drop or the profiling options, so I don't miss them
Try it, it's nice to mess up sites with it. Just drag any element and drop it somewhere else in the DOM, it really speeds-up designing sites, sooner or later it will kill Dreamweaver.
JanghouFriday, February 15, 2013 6:56:18 PM
Originally posted by QuHno:
Prefixed extensions to the standards should only be used for test pages or test versions of the browsers. Never. In. Production. Period.
50% of internet is called alpha or beta. BTW life is for experimenting, sometimes I try a silly walk when I'm working.
Originally posted by Frenzie:
Exactly. -moz- and -o- prefixes have been removed. -webkit prefixes are still working. Why is that? Clearly not to promote standards.
Right, if Apple and Google have any respect and do care about open standards they should remove support for -webkit- in their next releases on Dektop and Mobile for most CSS rules. So that Opera and Firefox are they only browsers that have webkit-prefix support
QuHnoFriday, February 15, 2013 8:05:17 PM
Originally posted by Janghou:
50% of internet is called alpha or beta. BTW life is for experimenting, sometimes I try a silly walk when I'm working.
Not comparable. Experimenting is nice but if an experiment no longer works, it should be removed. Lazy web-designers need to be punished. They implement test features and trust that they never change. They never update their site. Heck, lately I stumbled over a page saying: "Best viewed with Netscape 4.7" - and it used layers! Apart from Netscape no other browser ever supported that.
The same goes for -webkit-. Some pages still use e.g. the old, -webkit- prefixed gradient notation which was clumsy and therefore changed. It was never a TR and never meant to be used for pages that never change. Prefixed stuff is by definition meant only for testing and prefixes should be removed as soon as the spec becomes stable.
According to what I interpret into your sentence, modern browsers should still support the old Netscape layer elements because someone somewhen took a silly walk.
earth01Friday, February 15, 2013 8:26:54 PM
For those who think that the smoothness of the interface will remain, sadly you're mistaken. Why ? Because the Opera interface is rendered by vega, the front-end part of presto.
You cannot imagine what dropping presto means. Everything has to be rebuilt. Even the tab management will be different, because WebKit2 is using a multi-process system that avoid responsiveness and huge amount of tabs.
Have a , I'll stay with 12.14 meanwhile. Future will prove you were wrong.
Alphons van WervenFriday, February 15, 2013 8:45:55 PM
Originally posted by QuHno:
Lazy web-designers need to be punished.
Punished? Lined up and shot in the public square would be more like it.
But while Opera has been pretty much on permanent jury duty (i.e. if it doesn't work on Opera, most likely you did something wrong), moving to WebKit is an indication that they no longer care about standards.
André ZangheliniFriday, February 15, 2013 8:58:13 PM
Originally posted by earth01(...) [b:
Opera interface is rendered by vega, the front-end part of presto.[/b](...) tab management will be different, because WebKit2 is using a multi-process system that avoid responsiveness and huge amount of tabs.
Holy ****. Multi-process That's one of the main reasons I hate Chrome.
If the interface is rendered by Presto this change is just self-kill. This only proves that Presto is too good to be replaced and die.
LinuxMint7Friday, February 15, 2013 9:03:07 PM
Originally posted by An-dz:
Originally posted by earth01(...) [b:
Opera interface is rendered by vega, the front-end part of presto.[/b](...) tab management will be different, because WebKit2 is using a multi-process system that avoid responsiveness and huge amount of tabs.
If the interface is rendered by Presto
Read his post again, He said vega, Not Presto.
Stephan Robert SevenyolnFriday, February 15, 2013 9:05:59 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Originally posted by QuHno:
Lazy web-designers need to be punished.
Punished? Lined up and shot in the public square would be more like it.
But while Opera has been pretty much on permanent jury duty (i.e. if it doesn't work on Opera, most likely you did something wrong), moving to WebKit is an indication that they no longer care about standards.
They don't not care, they just gave up.
ahoj1234Friday, February 15, 2013 9:26:56 PM
Originally posted by earth01:
You cannot imagine what dropping presto means. Everything has to be rebuilt. Even the tab management will be different, because WebKit2 is using a multi-process system that avoid responsiveness and huge amount of tabs.
don't blame us
I have opend 6 tabs in latest Safari for windows and I can see 2 processes "safari" and 2 "webkit2...." so 3 processes at all... And I think that this 3 processes could be OK for Opera too.
So in fact that not have to be so bad. Chrome is multi-processing... using 3 processes is not multiprocessing for me... I can imagine to have opened my +-150 tabs with 3 processes...
I have opend 6 tabs in latest Safari for windows and I can see 2 processes "safari" and 2 "webkit2...." so 3 processes at all... And I think that this 3 processes could be OK for Opera too.
Not you personally Anymay I've opened 5 tabs on a chromium based browser (iron on linux), and I've already 10 processes...
ahoj1234Friday, February 15, 2013 9:35:42 PM
Originally posted by earth01:
Anymay I've opened 5 tabs on a chromium based browser (iron on linux), and I've already 10 processes...
so this depends... If apple's Safari (and Apple is who came with webkit) can handle it with 3 processes it means that it is possible. Opera could be at least 3 processing as Safari is or multiprocessing as a lot of bad browsers are.
Tarraccas ObremskiFriday, February 15, 2013 10:01:19 PM
If Opera can bring WebKit up to par, great. Apple and Google with all their resources have yet to.
I use Gecko and Presto (open source and proprietary rendering engines that more or less agree with one another with reasonable consistency) as my baseline standard and then port to WebKit and Trident (legacy) because both of those engines require the most amount of workarounds and alternative solutions to bring even close to the aforementioned standard and sometimes I recommend my clients scale back their ideas because WebKit simply cannot handle them and - for better and worse - we are stuck supporting WebKit due to its market share which was/is the same reason we were/are stuck supporting legacy Trident.
If Opera can improve WebKit with all the awesomeness of Presto for the good of Opera, users and developers alike and the web in general then this a good thing and I will reserve judgment until I see the results of this decision. But my cynicism is not without reason.
David GouldFriday, February 15, 2013 10:11:16 PM
Webkit getting slagged off by pretty much everyone on Slashdot today:
(...) I believe we do need options, we need different interests, code bases and rendering engines, to rather spur the diversity, instead of keeping it contained within just WebKit.
To be clear, browser engine independence pays off here because it tells the Web developer that there is a real choice of behaviors. The developer can say "oh, that behavior is definitely better" instead of just "oh, how strange". It also gives us implementors confidence we can change the behavior since Web content (if it's been tested in multiple browsers) can't be depending on one particular behavior. It also tells us that the Web developer's preferred behavior is actually implementable.
As developers (well, let’s say as new developers to the web) we always complain about diversity in browsers and how hard it is to support them all. What we fail to remember there is that standards only work when they are tested and verified in many different environments. Otherwise, they aren’t standards and may just be happy accidents that are not necessarily repeatable.
And yes, Opera was my reference for standard conformity too, the story of the one developer looking through all the specs because he coulnd't believe that Opera was wrong when it had a bug could have been me too. In 90% of all cases the other browsers were plainly wrong or - worse - proprietary if it didn't look exactly the same as in Opera.
JanghouFriday, February 15, 2013 11:16:00 PM
Originally posted by QuHno:
by definition meant only for testing and prefixes should be removed as soon as the spec becomes stable
Yes, and mankind shouldn't have any sins
OK, if we all put our money were our mouth is, Opera can get on as a paid Presto browser. 1$ pp must be enough = 300 million bugs
BiggrospifSaturday, February 16, 2013 1:27:45 AM
I am very frustrated from this decision. I have been using this software for many years and now I learn that the core of the software, the rendering engine will die and be replaced by something else. Presto was really good and was working on every website that I use. I don't know about the mentioned compability problems, but they were probably not that big.
Well.. Let's hope that freeing developpers working on presto will give more developper to work on new fabulous features and that Opera will drive the user-interface and functionnality like they did with tabbed browsing, mouse gesture, speed dial and keywork search on every website.
BiggrospifSaturday, February 16, 2013 1:35:02 AM
Could you at least keep both rendering engine at the same time for a while, with a user settings to chose if they want to keep presto ?
FransThursday, February 14, 2013 2:52:56 PM
Originally posted by QuHno:
Exactly. -moz- and -o- prefixes have been removed. -webkit prefixes are still working. Why is that? Clearly not to promote standards.
Alphons van WervenThursday, February 14, 2013 2:58:20 PM
Originally posted by zertty:
Signed, although I don't expect Opera Software to bite. They'd be creating their own competition.morbitThursday, February 14, 2013 3:15:11 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Maybe not, if old /*nix users would go away regardless, and new/Win ones caring
only for UI/skin on top of chromium would stay too.
But I agree, there is only small chance. If Opera would want to go open source, they would do it few years ago, starting with public bug track... And it clearly wasn't in the policy then.
André ZangheliniThursday, February 14, 2013 3:37:47 PM
Originally posted by christoph142:
That's why W3C is now asking developers to drop vendor prefixes.Originally posted by streunerx:
QFT. Developers complain about IE6 and IE7, but still create websites that work on them.Originally posted by streunerx:
+1, something like: "This website is badly developed, we fixed it for you but don't think about contracting who created it".kapsiThursday, February 14, 2013 3:55:12 PM
YongShunThursday, February 14, 2013 4:07:57 PM
I guess Firefox might be the one gaining in the near future
Alphons van WervenThursday, February 14, 2013 4:50:58 PM
Originally posted by An-dz:
Every browser should have that
d4rkn1ghtThursday, February 14, 2013 5:00:09 PM
Originally posted by olivir:
You can add no more Dragonfly to the list.
https://twitter.com/runeh/status/301616059729969152
QuHnoThursday, February 14, 2013 5:53:50 PM
Originally posted by Frenzie:
That is a very good question. I'd like to hear the answer - or better:
I'd like to see Opera act against vendor prefixes in webkit finals, especially now, that they are a part of the happy webkit family.
(If you can't change something, try to embrace it and do something productive with it.)
kapsiThursday, February 14, 2013 5:59:26 PM
Originally posted by earlnuclear:
We'll always have Internet Explorer...Alphons van WervenThursday, February 14, 2013 6:12:42 PM
Originally posted by kapsi:
For what exactly? Recent versions are no longer available for the Mac (not that I care, but still) and Microsoft's brief attempt at releasing MSIE for a few UNIX platforms (I seem to recall HP-UX being one of them) couldn't even be taken seriously. Current incarnations of Internet Explorer are for Windows only and therefore completely and utterly useless to anyone who's not on Windows.
coolclerkThursday, February 14, 2013 7:13:47 PM
The browser is not only the shell, not only the GUI, but also technologies behind it. What would differ Opera from the other browsers? The engine is responsible for the experience of the users too, not just the GUI.
p.s I signed the petition. I rather prefer open source Presto than dead Presto.
StelianThursday, February 14, 2013 7:56:24 PM
Opera Chrome
https://files.myopera.com/LZ2SDC/Smilies/Opera%20Chrome.jpeg -
DanielThursday, February 14, 2013 8:08:37 PM
Cinisello BalsamoThursday, February 14, 2013 8:16:25 PM
Alphons van WervenThursday, February 14, 2013 8:27:05 PM
Igor Isaias BanlianThursday, February 14, 2013 9:38:00 PM
We will not use your patents, just his Presto engine!
If you do not want to donate the Presto engine for community, I will make a big petition to convince them to do it!
Regards,
Igor Isaias Banlian
LinuxMint7Thursday, February 14, 2013 9:54:49 PM
Originally posted by IgorIsaiasBanlian:
Already done by someone else.
https://www.change.org/petitions/opera-software-open-sources-of-presto-engine#
Igor Isaias BanlianThursday, February 14, 2013 10:08:44 PM
Originally posted by LinuxMint7:
Thanks for informing me about this, I've already signed the petition now!
Regards,
Igor Isaias Banlian
Рыжков АлексейThursday, February 14, 2013 11:13:28 PM
if it is be good - it's ok.
if it's suck - i can't see where I'm going to land... IceDragon? Arora?
Michael FadelyFriday, February 15, 2013 3:09:01 AM
Chances are (very high chances, in fact), you'll still have the feature-rich Opera UI on top of it, so why stop using it? Tab stacking, speed dial--all of the UI driven features will more than likely still be present.
I just can't fathom what keeps giving everyone the idea that it's "just chrome" when it's so much more. Chrome has an oversimplified UI designed for... well, people who can't figure out a UI! Opera on the other hand, has a complex UI which is fantastic for multitasking. I honestly can't say for any other browser--although Firefox has the right idea in this regard.
By making this change, as they said, they can focus more on this kind of thing rather than trying to just get it to render things properly and duplicating things that have already been done time and time again.
tl;dr: You're looking at it the wrong way! Opera will still be Opera, just with a different powerhouse behind the UI.
Christopher FritzFriday, February 15, 2013 3:26:13 AM
I'm sad to see Presto go, but as long as the Opera feature-set doesn't change in any major impacting way for me, I don't see any reason for me to stop using Opera in favor of another browser. Dragonfly will be missed as well; though I don't do web dev anymore, there's the occasional helping others with some troubleshooting. Dragonfly's been quite nice for that.
oerg866Friday, February 15, 2013 6:47:31 AM
Good Job, Opera.
PeterFriday, February 15, 2013 10:52:29 AM
Opera's community might be small in numbers, but remember, these users chose it freely and consciously, they neither found Opera installed in his/her computer nor it was "recommended" to them to install it by some web sites and services.
Each of these browsers uses its own engine. Maybe this is the main reason they all belong to "Mighty Four". With Opera abandoning its unique Presto, it will fall to category of RockMelt, SRWare Iron, Yandex, Comodo Dragon, with all respect to their developers, and other clones which most of us has never heard about.
But that's just my opinion. Call it nostalgia, since I use Opera as my main browser for 13 years. If Opera thinks that Presto is inferior to Webkit, does not like it or does not want to use it anymore, please, make it open source
Leonardo Franchi ZeclhynsckiFriday, February 15, 2013 11:02:24 AM
coolclerkFriday, February 15, 2013 12:21:20 PM
Originally posted by CREEPER:
Opera community maybe is small in number, but consisted of people that really know why they chosen Opera. It's maybe not so big in numbers, but united and solid
Originally posted by SonicFreak94:
When you replace the engine of your car with other one, you will never feel the same, it would never be the same experience, nor the same behavior.
morbitFriday, February 15, 2013 12:58:15 PM
Originally posted by chris-fritz:
surf is really bare-bones webkit engine 'browser' and I don't think it has really stellar performance, but maybe I'm mistaken.Cinisello BalsamoFriday, February 15, 2013 1:23:37 PM
Alphons van WervenFriday, February 15, 2013 2:03:59 PM
Originally posted by SonicFreak94:
That "powerhouse" is a big part of what makes (made) Opera Opera.
■Friday, February 15, 2013 3:08:13 PM
Opera will not be Opera anymore, it will become another Chrome clone, that soon will be lost in translation and forgotten.
I guess the needful is done...
vux777Friday, February 15, 2013 4:09:08 PM
If this turn out to be bad move, there is always Presto to turn back to.
I personally can't wait to see Opera on WebKit, especially because this last snapshot/version is crashing like hell.... (think that FB connect is problem)
Opera dev's
s/ashFriday, February 15, 2013 5:05:36 PM
Originally posted by vux777:
This. Is the main reason why I use Opera. Hopefully WebKit won't affect it that much. I could not fin one single WebKit-based browser that has Opera's UI smoothness. All of them seem to be capped at ~25fps, whereas Opera 's UI is rendered at 60fps (measured with Fraps).
JanghouFriday, February 15, 2013 6:35:48 PM
Originally posted by sirnh1:
Yes, I use Dragonfly daily, and I like the Interface and a lot of things,
Originally posted by sirnh1:
Try it, it's nice to mess up sites with it.
Just drag any element and drop it somewhere else in the DOM, it really speeds-up designing sites, sooner or later it will kill Dreamweaver.
JanghouFriday, February 15, 2013 6:56:18 PM
Originally posted by QuHno:
50% of internet is called alpha or beta. BTW life is for experimenting, sometimes I try a silly walk when I'm working.
Originally posted by Frenzie:
Right, if Apple and Google have any respect and do care about open standards they should remove support for -webkit- in their next releases on Dektop and Mobile for most CSS rules. So that Opera and Firefox are they only browsers that have webkit-prefix support
QuHnoFriday, February 15, 2013 8:05:17 PM
Originally posted by Janghou:
Not comparable. Experimenting is nice but if an experiment no longer works, it should be removed. Lazy web-designers need to be punished. They implement test features and trust that they never change. They never update their site. Heck, lately I stumbled over a page saying: "Best viewed with Netscape 4.7" - and it used layers! Apart from Netscape no other browser ever supported that.
The same goes for -webkit-. Some pages still use e.g. the old, -webkit- prefixed gradient notation which was clumsy and therefore changed. It was never a TR and never meant to be used for pages that never change. Prefixed stuff is by definition meant only for testing and prefixes should be removed as soon as the spec becomes stable.
According to what I interpret into your sentence, modern browsers should still support the old Netscape layer elements because someone somewhen took a silly walk.
earth01Friday, February 15, 2013 8:26:54 PM
Why ? Because the Opera interface is rendered by vega, the front-end part of presto.
You cannot imagine what dropping presto means. Everything has to be rebuilt. Even the tab management will be different, because WebKit2 is using a multi-process system that avoid responsiveness and huge amount of tabs.
Have a
Alphons van WervenFriday, February 15, 2013 8:45:55 PM
Originally posted by QuHno:
Punished? Lined up and shot in the public square would be more like it.
But while Opera has been pretty much on permanent jury duty (i.e. if it doesn't work on Opera, most likely you did something wrong), moving to WebKit is an indication that they no longer care about standards.
André ZangheliniFriday, February 15, 2013 8:58:13 PM
Originally posted by earth01(...) [b:
Holy ****.
Multi-process
If the interface is rendered by Presto this change is just self-kill. This only proves that Presto is too good to be replaced and die.
LinuxMint7Friday, February 15, 2013 9:03:07 PM
Originally posted by An-dz:
Read his post again, He said vega, Not Presto.
Stephan Robert SevenyolnFriday, February 15, 2013 9:05:59 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
They don't not care, they just gave up.ahoj1234Friday, February 15, 2013 9:26:56 PM
Originally posted by earth01:
don't blame us
I have opend 6 tabs in latest Safari for windows and I can see 2 processes "safari" and 2 "webkit2...." so 3 processes at all... And I think that this 3 processes could be OK for Opera too.
So in fact that not have to be so bad. Chrome is multi-processing... using 3 processes is not multiprocessing for me... I can imagine to have opened my +-150 tabs with 3 processes...
earth01Friday, February 15, 2013 9:33:39 PM
Originally posted by LinuxMint7:
In fact, Vega is inside presto... http://my.opera.com/core/blog/2009/02/04/vega
Originally posted by ahoj1234:
Not you personally
Anymay I've opened 5 tabs on a chromium based browser (iron on linux), and I've already 10 processes...
ahoj1234Friday, February 15, 2013 9:35:42 PM
Originally posted by earth01:
so this depends...
Tarraccas ObremskiFriday, February 15, 2013 10:01:19 PM
I use Gecko and Presto (open source and proprietary rendering engines that more or less agree with one another with reasonable consistency) as my baseline standard and then port to WebKit and Trident (legacy) because both of those engines require the most amount of workarounds and alternative solutions to bring even close to the aforementioned standard and sometimes I recommend my clients scale back their ideas because WebKit simply cannot handle them and - for better and worse - we are stuck supporting WebKit due to its market share which was/is the same reason we were/are stuck supporting legacy Trident.
If Opera can improve WebKit with all the awesomeness of Presto for the good of Opera, users and developers alike and the web in general then this a good thing and I will reserve judgment until I see the results of this decision. But my cynicism is not without reason.
David GouldFriday, February 15, 2013 10:11:16 PM
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/02/15/154224/webkit-as-broken-as-older-ie-versions
QuHnoFriday, February 15, 2013 10:14:49 PM
http://robert.ocallahan.org/2013/02/a-small-example-of-value-of-browser.html
Or just read this:
(The author linked to the articles of above quotes too.)
http://christianheilmann.com/2013/02/13/i-will-miss-the-douglas-crockford-of-browsers/
And yes, Opera was my reference for standard conformity too, the story of the one developer looking through all the specs because he coulnd't believe that Opera was wrong when it had a bug could have been me too. In 90% of all cases the other browsers were plainly wrong or - worse - proprietary if it didn't look exactly the same as in Opera.
JanghouFriday, February 15, 2013 11:16:00 PM
Originally posted by QuHno:
Yes, and mankind shouldn't have any sins
OK, if we all put our money were our mouth is, Opera can get on as a paid Presto browser.
1$ pp must be enough = 300 million bugs
BiggrospifSaturday, February 16, 2013 1:27:45 AM
Well.. Let's hope that freeing developpers working on presto will give more developper to work on new fabulous features and that Opera will drive the user-interface and functionnality like they did with tabbed browsing, mouse gesture, speed dial and keywork search on every website.
BiggrospifSaturday, February 16, 2013 1:35:02 AM
KerenSkyySaturday, February 16, 2013 1:48:10 AM