Actually I have heard that Opera 12.14 will use webkit, but Opera 14.12 will switch to Trident, after which 16.12 will use Gecko and 18.14 will use... i have ran out of major rendering engines... which brings me to the point:
Gecko || Trident || Webkit || PRESTO <- we will loose one major rendering engine, only because Opera Software ASA wants to save money and increase profitability.
Bruce LawsonMonday, February 18, 2013 12:26:30 PM
Thanks all for your comments.
I'm sending a digest to the product teams. I can’t comment on features of the new products (because they’re still being worked on and also because our PR department are evil, taser-wielding psychos who’ve kicked me before about doing that).
But the aim, after integrating the new engine (which,as you’d imagine, isn’t trivial after 18 years of development of Presto), it to greatly improve UI and features.
As I said in the original article, our extensions are very important to us; there will be a migration path which will be as automated as we can possibly make it.
I can't comment on timescales for releases, because we simply don't know yet - there's a lot of testing an integration to do. However, the new Android product will be demoed next week at Mobile World Congress show in Barcelona.
mubaidrMonday, February 18, 2013 1:10:37 PM
Originally posted by brucelawson:
Thanks all for your comments.
Originally posted by brucelawson:
But the aim, after integrating the new engine (which,as you’d imagine, isn’t trivial after 18 years of development of Presto), it to greatly improve UI and features.
Good to hear!
Originally posted by brucelawson:
As I said in the original article, our extensions are very important to us; there will be a migration path which will be as automated as we can possibly make it.
You are changing extension packaging to same as that of Chrome? In other words, will Opera user be able to install extensions from Chrome repository?
Originally posted by brucelawson:
However, the new Android product will be demoed next week at Mobile World Congress show in Barcelona.
I request you to give us snapshot (Lab's build) to play with (whether it is stable or not, thats what lab testing is meant for ), this will also answer many of the questions about the development.
Adonis @ my.opera /friendspartyworldMonday, February 18, 2013 3:09:29 PM
I guess if opera succeeds to be the better browser with the same engine, they can still be more secure? Primary reason for many to use opera. As well just some user features that has less to do with performance. As far as opera mini, it is using a complete different rendering engine imho.
Why would that change now?
MossManMonday, February 18, 2013 3:58:27 PM
Thanks for some desperately needed feedback, Bruce!
Leonardo Franchi ZeclhynsckiMonday, February 18, 2013 4:01:58 PM
Somehow 300 millions of loyal users doesn't seem enough for them. And the announcing of the user-base size along with the change to webkit shows their intention of reaching even larger masses. This is what I perceive. But quantity =/= quality. I have already installed EMET and added Opera 12.14 on it, I'm not updating to another Webkit browser, I already have Chromium installed as a secondary browser, imho Opera lost its relevance. Dragonfly was magic. Even if this move to webkit was a financial I would rather see Opera re-introducing ads in the browser. I would like to see Presto becoming open-source, the Opera community deserves it. Even if this means a rival presto-based browser bitting Opera in a distant future.
PropellertopMonday, February 18, 2013 5:02:58 PM
Not being a developer I really don't have a grasp on how the rendering engine and JS implementation is going to make a difference overall. SOUNDS like the decision was purely (and unfortunately) profit based. Several areas of innovation will no longer be possible on WebKit and as I understand it from others 'in the know' it's much more bloated. I've been a strong proponent of opera for many years and will give the new builds a chance, but without a MUCH better explanation of how the changes will affect the underlying feature set, am very sad at this decision. Time will tell I guess.....
I still believe the better way would have been open sourcing Presto. If it is similarly capable and more nimble than Webkit, than it should've attracted some attention. Hell, it could have been the "next big thing". I just hope Dragonfly will be ported and M2, urlfilter, UI, customizations, small size plus ability to easily handle hundreds of open tabs won't be lost.
FireFFFUUUMonday, February 18, 2013 9:42:01 PM
Originally posted by Plague:
I still believe the better way would have been open sourcing Presto. If it is similarly capable and more nimble than Webkit, than it should've attracted some attention. Hell, it could have been the "next big thing".
This might be true.
Duzmáth TamásMonday, February 18, 2013 10:00:00 PM
I'm sorry, so sorry...
Just an idea: is it possible to make Opera open source? I understand that some people want to make webkit browser, it's okay, but some people LOVE Opera and don't want to move to webkit.
Just an idea: is it possible to make Opera open source?
Izer0Monday, February 18, 2013 10:30:33 PM
So, all good things of Opera will be gone:
1. memory cache settings to optimize memory consumption 2. all personal settings to pages like per site personalized cookies, plugins, UA etc. etc, etc. 3. per site personalized content blocker, big added value to opera browser 4. personalized net settings like numbers of all/per session connections to server 5. render page after X second 6. popup menu on doubleclick on an word / easy search word on google 7. open URL by select it in text (to nonlinked url) 8. perfect keyboard - shortcuts customization, ctrl+space to home, new tab shortcut customization etc. only small amount of stupid "chromium" abilities 9. optimized loading for big amount of tabs 10. optimized memory footprint for big amount of tabs/pages opened 11. plugins gone
Nice Tell me guys, why I will want to use Opera in future??? You will be same as competitors Are you sure you know what are you doing? If you are thinking about webkit, think how to incorporate this features to your "new" Opera browser. Maybe you can use webkit only as framework and use inheritance to extend webkit with your great functionality used in Presto based browser.
PengeMonday, February 18, 2013 11:19:54 PM
Originally posted by brucelawson:
As I said in the original article, our extensions are very important to us; there will be a migration path which will be as automated as we can possibly make it.
Thanks for the comment! Personally, I'm worried about the lesser-known features, for example: Fit-to-Width, Spatial Navigation, Fast History Navigation, custom buttons, UserJS/UserCSS, advanced site-specific settings, etc.
Obviously the "featured" features will be ported to the Webkit version of Opera. I guess also the HTML5 specs which are not supported by Webkit (HTML5 Forms, Custom Content Handler, Microdata) will be merged into Webkit.
Many of us are worried about the old, abandoned features which the developers don't focus paid any attention for many years. And thanks for the development which doesn't stirred up the standing water these features are remain from version to version.
virusgratis2Tuesday, February 19, 2013 4:12:52 AM
Originally posted by Penge4:
Originally posted by brucelawson:
As I said in the original article, our extensions are very important to us; there will be a migration path which will be as automated as we can possibly make it.
Thanks for the comment! Personally, I'm worried about the lesser-known features, for example: Fit-to-Width, Spatial Navigation, Fast History Navigation, custom buttons, UserJS/UserCSS, advanced site-specific settings, etc.
Obviously the "featured" features will be ported to the Webkit version of Opera. I guess also the HTML5 specs which are not supported by Webkit (HTML5 Forms, Custom Content Handler, Microdata) will be merged into Webkit.
Many of us are worried about the old, abandoned features which the developers don't focus paid any attention for many years. And thanks for the development which doesn't stirred up the standing water these features are remain from version to version.
What're you mean?
Fid to width, is a great feature, good when one usates a lot of tabs, resizing the content of every tab to the size of window.
Spatial navigation is great if you are an ''expert'' using the keyboard.
Fast History Navigation, this is other great feature and should not be removed, as the custom buttons (that add more functiones to opera with pure javascript code), and the specific site settings, there are great features that firefox/chrome hasn't. This makes opera unique browser.
Opera will be another ''clon'' of Chrome, less stability, more memory usage, less capability of personalization of the UI and more... another webkit-based browser, this is bad for the open culture on the web. These ''abandoned'' features (but functional) are that makes opera unique,, but no more, it will be the same sh*t that are Chrome, or Maxthon....
FransTuesday, February 19, 2013 7:50:14 AM
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
What're you mean? Fid to width, is a great feature, good when one usates a lot of tabs, resizing the content of every tab to the size of window.
Spatial navigation is great if you are an ''expert'' using the keyboard. [snip]
Yes, that's exactly what he means. He's worried about those features, you are, I am, etc.
Michael FadelyTuesday, February 19, 2013 8:43:28 AM
Originally posted by coolclerk:
When you replace the engine of your car with other one, you will never feel the same, it would never be the same experience, nor the same behavior.
Yes, and I don't doubt that. But like a car, if you only replace the engine, you'll still have that nice interior that you liked so much.
What I'm saying is that even if what's going on behind the scenes is different, the way you're interacting with it is inherently the same.
QuHnoTuesday, February 19, 2013 10:06:39 AM
Oh car comparisons - they almost never work. *1)
For all who need them: It is like building a Formula 1 or IndyCar engine and gear box into a nice, comfortable, full air conditioned bus with TV, shower, restroom, kitchen and swimming pool. It will not survive the full load, the gear will jam at the first start with more than one person in it, while the old 600hp Diesel just pulled on
*1) true in this case too.
AzraelTuesday, February 19, 2013 10:20:36 AM
Originally posted by SonicFreak94:
But like a car, if you only replace the engine, you'll still have that nice interior that you liked so much.
And here's the problem - they aren't just replacing the engine, they also ripping out the electrical system (the javascript engine) and replacing it with a new incompatible one. So yea, that nice interior will have to be completely replaced/redesigned since all the gizmos will no longer work.
Originally posted by SonicFreak94:
the way you're interacting with it is inherently the same.
And that's what's exactly NOT going to happen, simply because the effort in converting all those features to the new javascript engine is going to be huge and they are not going to bother with it. They are even admitting that publicly - from the TechCrunch's article: We're coming out with a brand new UI, brand new product in Q3.
EricJHTuesday, February 19, 2013 2:08:55 PM
Originally posted by Frenzie:
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
What're you mean? Fid to width, is a great feature, good when one usates a lot of tabs, resizing the content of every tab to the size of window.
Spatial navigation is great if you are an ''expert'' using the keyboard. [snip]
Yes, that's exactly what he means. He's worried about those features, you are, I am, etc.
For me it is the almost silence about them with no happy news about what is going to stay that has me worried. Keep in mind that the decision must have been scrutinised and that this information should be available.
I use Opera for its shrewd and cunning features straight from the box and I want the rich functionality to stay. Loosing that would be castrating a successful product.
For me as a happy long term, and usually not a vocal, user that usually went with the flows the lack of information is a straight up insult and may be indicative of contempt and disregard towards Opera's loyal userbase (Opera's free ambassadors) from the powers that cooked this transition...
Daniel SanerTuesday, February 19, 2013 4:32:39 PM
It's stated in the article, and said before in these comments, but because people are still asking the same questions I thought I'd repeat it
To those who are worrying that Opera will no longer be Opera and become a Chrome or Safari clone: it won't! This change affects only how the actual websites that you open are rendered. It affects what goes on in the "website view" portion of your Opera window, and nothing else! Everything to do with Opera's interface (toolbars, customizability, mouse gestures...) or additional features (mail, chat, Opera Turbo...) is completely unaffected by this. Using the same rendering engine as Chrome also doesn't mean that any of Chrome's other features will appear on Opera (spyware, updater...). So don't worry. It might even mean that Opera have more resources to spend on those features that make Opera unique, now that they don't have to invest in developing their own engine.
I don't know how much this will impact Dragonfly, since it I suppose it is more closely intertwined with the rendering engine. But I'm sure they're aware of the importance it has for many Opera users, and will work on making all its functionality work with Webkit.
Edit: also, the announcement about a completely new UI is probably unrelated to this largely technical change. Opera have always changed their browsers' UI every now and then. They likely would have done so even if they continued using Presto.
timw4mailTuesday, February 19, 2013 4:42:01 PM
Dragonfly is the only thing about Opera that I won't miss.
Presto is what made Opera Opera. Replacing it just means that Opera is declaring itself a has-been.
It's short-sighted and foolish.
Alphons van WervenTuesday, February 19, 2013 5:28:23 PM
Originally posted by DaSaner:
To those who are worrying that Opera will no longer be Opera and become a Chrome or Safari clone: it won't! This change affects only how the actual websites that you open are rendered. It affects what goes on in the "website view" portion of your Opera window, and nothing else!
Sigh. For some of us exactly that is a major reason for choosing Opera in the first place.
netwolfTuesday, February 19, 2013 6:08:28 PM
Originally posted by EricJH:
For me as a happy long term, and usually not a vocal, user that usually went with the flows the lack of information is a straight up insult and may be indicative of contempt and disregard towards Opera's loyal userbase (Opera's free ambassadors) from the powers that cooked this transition...
Pretty much my feelings as well, couldn't have said it better...
AzraelTuesday, February 19, 2013 6:40:35 PM
Originally posted by DaSaner:
It's stated in the article, and said before in these comments, but because people are still asking the same questions I thought I'd repeat it
Yet you still don't understand the full extent of the problem - they aren't limiting the change to the rendering engine (which indeed would affect only the display of the sites), it includes the core of Opera: the JavaScript engine, Carakan. When that will be changed all those features that explicitly depend on it, and most of those features are, will go with it. The only way those features could be kept is STRICTLY by recoding them for the new JavaScript engine, V8 and, since most of the coding team has been fired, that's not going to happen.
phantom-blackTuesday, February 19, 2013 7:57:44 PM
I don't need next stinking chrome... I don't wanna use anything with webkit... It's very sad message for me, it was my favourite browser... Opera with presto: 419/500 points: http://html5test.com/results/desktop.html
MossManWednesday, February 20, 2013 6:41:13 AM
Originally posted by DaSaner:
It's stated in the article, and said before in these comments, but because people are still asking the same questions I thought I'd repeat it
To those who are worrying that Opera will no longer be Opera and become a Chrome or Safari clone: it won't! This change affects only how the actual websites that you open are rendered.
[...]
I don't know how much this will impact Dragonfly, since it I suppose it is more closely intertwined with the rendering engine.
And so I'm afraid your whole argument falls flat on its face!
Dragonfly was the first thing announced to be REMOVED due to WebKit integration. Your assurances are meaningless since we have no way of knowing which features will/won't make it. The recent dropping of Torrents, Unite and Widgets does *not* bode well for a 1:1 copy of the current UI, nor does the stated aim of launching with a "new" UI in the third quarter.
QuHnoWednesday, February 20, 2013 7:04:59 AM
<---- UI tweaking since about 2000
Originally posted by DaSaner:
Opera have always changed their browsers' UI every now and then.
Don't confuse optics with UI. UI is much more. In the past, Opera has less changed but modified the UI, mostly in a way that most of the parts still worked in the new version. Normally they only added things, made some occasional changes in some INIs here, some YAML for dialogs there, to fit new needs or add new elements, but all were quite moderate changes that did not compromise the efforts a user made to change the UI in a way that it fits him.
It is about choices, and as with the user-stylesheets in CSS, the users choices should have absolute priority.
FransWednesday, February 20, 2013 9:27:28 AM
Originally posted by QuHno:
as with the user-stylesheets in CSS, the users choices should have absolute priority.
But unfortunately user styles haven't had priority since Opera 9.2 or 9.5 or so fixed a "bug" where they did. Only a rude !important gives them priority. /not-relevant-to-the-point
Mimis Mum (MM)Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:55:58 PM
Originally posted by brucelawson:
Thanks all for your comments. ...
But the aim, after integrating the new engine (which,as you’d imagine, isn’t trivial after 18 years of development of Presto), it to greatly improve UI and features.
Thanks, Bruce. Good to know you said "improve UI and fearures", which suggests you do not intend to remove existing features.
I have a quick question. About that segment in your post that reads, "Opera will use WebKit as its rendering engine and V8 as its JavaScript engine. It's built using the open-source Chromium browser as one of its components". I wonder you actually meant to say "Opera will use WebKit as its rendering engine and V8 as its JavaScript engine. It's built using, used in the open-source Chromium browser as one of its components." but got the wording slightly out of alignment. Would be great if you could confirm which was your intention. Cheers.
s-ta-sWednesday, February 20, 2013 8:58:40 PM
Next news will be: move to WebKit and 300 users as a result
BetaMorphThursday, February 21, 2013 2:22:36 AM
Originally posted by phantom-black:
I don't need next stinking chrome... I don't wanna use anything with webkit... It's very sad message for me, it was my favourite browser... Opera with presto: 419/500 points: http://html5test.com/results/desktop.html
How can you tell it will be a "next stinking Chrome"? As far as I see they will use Chromium as a layer to what they have today. There are info saying just that in links already given earlier.
André ZangheliniThursday, February 21, 2013 2:25:11 AM
Opera is the fifth biggest browsers and they should see that:
* Opera is not built-in in the OS.
* Opera is not from a multi-billionaire monopoly which controls the, almost only search engine and video sharing website.
* Opera is not an open-source soft where a bunch of hipster programmers and bloggers demand their users to use because "it's better".
BetaMorphThursday, February 21, 2013 2:26:06 AM
Originally posted by s-ta-s:
Next news will be: move to WebKit and 300 users as a result
300 users went away? I guess they can deal with that.
BetaMorphThursday, February 21, 2013 2:29:07 AM
Originally posted by An-dz:
Opera is the fifth biggest browsers and they should see that:
* Opera is not built-in in the OS.
* Opera is not from a multi-billionaire monopoly which controls the, almost only search engine and video sharing website.
* Opera is not an open-source soft where a bunch of hipster programmers and bloggers demand their users to use because "it's better".
+100
s-ta-sThursday, February 21, 2013 9:49:07 AM
Originally posted by BetaMorph:
300 users went away? I guess they can deal with that.
No. Only 300 users will remain.
PengeThursday, February 21, 2013 1:33:37 PM
Originally posted by s-ta-s:
No. Only 300 users will remain.
Before: 300 million users and move to WebKit. After: 300 million users lost after moved to WebKit.
Joking aside: They think they are in winning position, because they know that no matter how much damage it can do to the Opera. Most of us are "forced" to using it, because no real alternative. Chrome? Eats too much memory, highly restricted extension API and just only a GUI with addressbar without extensions. Firefox? Eats too much memory, slow startup, slow response time, buggy browser, buggy extensions. IE/Safari? It's a joke. Maxthon/Comodo, etc.? They're only modified Chromium/Firefox with some popular features.
That's the reason why they don't release the source code. Doing the same tactics in small such as the Microsoft in big.
Daniel SanerThursday, February 21, 2013 3:28:01 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Sigh. For some of us exactly that is a major reason for choosing Opera in the first place.
Which is why I explicitly directed my post towards those commenters who were worried about losing features completely unrelated to the engine.
Originally posted by Azrael1:
it includes the core of Opera: the JavaScript engine, Carakan. When that will be changed all those features that explicitly depend on it, and most of those features are, will go with it.
The JavaScript part was what I was personally most worried about, and somehow I overread its explicit mention in the article above. I assumed they would rewrite their own engine to work with WebKit. But this is indeed a bummer.
Originally posted by MossMan:
Dragonfly was the first thing announced to be REMOVED due to WebKit integration.
Not good either. Where's that announcement?
Dominique JaramilloThursday, February 21, 2013 4:31:40 PM
I have a feeling this might not be the best of decisions, after all I do encourage competition and hate seeing good ideas die, but I suppose in the end there can only be one winner. (Now if only I could come up with a better post)
FireFFFUUUThursday, February 21, 2013 4:58:34 PM
Originally posted by Penge4:
That's the reason why they don't release the source code. Doing the same tactics in small such as the Microsoft in big.
Unfortunately, when you're the small fish, patents and CloseSource seem the only competitive advantage you can have. If not, the bigger fishes will have no problem taking your good things and use them, anyone will remember that you were the first that introduced :/
Originally posted by BetaMorph:
* Opera is not an open-source soft where a bunch of hipster programmers and bloggers demand their users to use because "it's better".
Which also had all the help Google advertising. The first Google browser was Firefox.
Originally posted by Azrael1:
it includes the core of Opera: the JavaScript engine, Carakan. When that will be changed all those features that explicitly depend on it, and most of those features are, will go with it. The only way those features could be kept is STRICTLY by recoding them for the new JavaScript engine, V8 and, since most of the coding team has been fired, that's not going to h
Not necessarily.
If works on the JS-engine, there shouldn't be major problem except for some non-standard API, since (in theory) even if they are different engines the standard language is the same. In this case would only port these APIs or translated to the equivalent of Webkit.
Another thing are the features that work with the engine internally. I don't know if there are any features that do that.
MossManThursday, February 21, 2013 5:05:21 PM
Originally posted by DaSaner:
Originally posted by MossMan:
Dragonfly was the first thing announced to be REMOVED due to WebKit integration.
André ZangheliniThursday, February 21, 2013 8:15:20 PM
This is sad. Dragonfly is the best tool, maybe in 20 years another reach its power.
I see the dev team is not that 'happy' about this move.
alchemysticThursday, February 21, 2013 8:20:34 PM
This is sad to hear... No more DragonFly, no more Presto.
zarathosThursday, February 21, 2013 8:40:17 PM
When I heard it it was like WTF? I work as web developer (HTML/CSS/JS) and I'm actually friggin PROUD to code on Opera and then test on other broswers. And I also learned that coding for Opera makes the sites pretty much perfect on other broswers (all but Safari, but's Apple, worse then IE). Not neccessarily other way.
Opera+Webkit meangons end of Opera for me. I was using it because it was independent from the mainstream "brown goo" that is served by Google and Apple. Also because it was pretty good with performance and had great features.
I suppose that features wont go away, that performance will be the same or slightly better for now. But with webkit as rendering engine it will be for Safari and Chrom what Maxton was for IE. Just another skin and some different features. I really, really doubt that Opera will gain market with this move. After all people do not care about the engine behind the browser. And Opera is still Opera. And not Chrome.
I used Opera since it got full free (8.5) and was loyal customer. Very loyal as I still use Opera after all those years on all my computers, for private and proffesional work. No more.
I do not want webkit Maxthon called Opera. I don't want to code for another IE-like shit screwing with standards. I will switch to Mozilla and Gecko as my professional browser. And if the rummors about Dragonfly are true - Opera is dead for me, frankly with it being webkit there will be no reason for me to use it at all. I can test the sites on Chrome as well.
It really sucks.
FaivkonaFriday, February 22, 2013 1:24:29 PM
I have used opera since early beginning when I had to pay for it because it is (was) fresh, innovative and not part of monopolists. Now it jumps of the bandwagon apple and google. So it'll become - like many say here - another IE6. Monopoly. That is why I was using opera. Goodbye.
oldawyFriday, February 22, 2013 5:07:30 PM
if it is the same but faster and more compatible i will take it
FireFFFUUUFriday, February 22, 2013 6:17:14 PM
Originally posted by Faivkona:
So it'll become - like many say here - another IE6. Monopoly. That is why I was using opera. Goodbye.
And Where are you going to? to the Webkit monopoly?. to the Trident monopoly?. to the Gecko monopoly?.
At least Webkit is made by a group rather than a single entity, as well as being the most advanced in that group.
oldawyFriday, February 22, 2013 8:41:09 PM
it would be nice if opera tops chrome one day
Alphons van WervenFriday, February 22, 2013 11:35:56 PM
Originally posted by oldawy:
it would be nice if opera tops chrome one day
Top it in what way?
In terms of UI features Opera will still be way ahead of Chrome. In terms of performance, Opera might possibly still be better than Chrome although not by as much as is the case right now. In terms of standards compliance, Opera will probably go from far superior to completely unremarkable. In terms of number of users, just forget it: this WebKit monkey business is a really bad mistake.
oldawySaturday, February 23, 2013 9:42:42 AM
why is it bad mistake i don't know much about webkit or presto or whatever but if they can make a far better chrome i don't see why it won't get more people i don't think they will take such a decision knowing it will make their browser worst people say chrome lags and slow here but i actually experience opera to be slower and a lot of pages don't work the way it should i don't know how accurate the tests or those benchmarks people make but you can see that opera always is behind when it comes to stuff like browsing speed and chromes always tops again i don't know if switching to webkit will fix this but if it can i don't see why not.
vux777Saturday, February 23, 2013 1:29:05 PM
any news when can we expect first desktop version? ...yea, I know they say next month after mobile version is published at the end of this, but... any insider news?
■Monday, February 18, 2013 11:57:38 AM
Gecko || Trident || Webkit || PRESTO <- we will loose one major rendering engine, only because Opera Software ASA wants to save money and increase profitability.
Bruce LawsonMonday, February 18, 2013 12:26:30 PM
I'm sending a digest to the product teams. I can’t comment on features of the new products (because they’re still being worked on and also because our PR department are evil, taser-wielding psychos who’ve kicked me before about doing that).
But the aim, after integrating the new engine (which,as you’d imagine, isn’t trivial after 18 years of development of Presto), it to greatly improve UI and features.
As I said in the original article, our extensions are very important to us; there will be a migration path which will be as automated as we can possibly make it.
I can't comment on timescales for releases, because we simply don't know yet - there's a lot of testing an integration to do. However, the new Android product will be demoed next week at Mobile World Congress show in Barcelona.
mubaidrMonday, February 18, 2013 1:10:37 PM
Originally posted by brucelawson:
Originally posted by brucelawson:
Good to hear!
Originally posted by brucelawson:
You are changing extension packaging to same as that of Chrome?
Originally posted by brucelawson:
I request you to give us snapshot (Lab's build) to play with (whether it is stable or not, thats what lab testing is meant for
Adonis @ my.opera /friendspartyworldMonday, February 18, 2013 3:09:29 PM
Primary reason for many to use opera. As well just some user features that has less to do with performance. As far as opera mini, it is using a complete different rendering engine imho.
Why would that change now?
MossManMonday, February 18, 2013 3:58:27 PM
Leonardo Franchi ZeclhynsckiMonday, February 18, 2013 4:01:58 PM
I have already installed EMET and added Opera 12.14 on it, I'm not updating to another Webkit browser, I already have Chromium installed as a secondary browser, imho Opera lost its relevance. Dragonfly was magic.
Even if this move to webkit was a financial I would rather see Opera re-introducing ads in the browser.
I would like to see Presto becoming open-source, the Opera community deserves it. Even if this means a rival presto-based browser bitting Opera in a distant future.
PropellertopMonday, February 18, 2013 5:02:58 PM
QuHnoMonday, February 18, 2013 6:13:42 PM
Originally posted by brucelawson:
Thank You!
PlagueMonday, February 18, 2013 8:34:22 PM
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/343596/disney-s-clown-of-the-jungle-o.gif
I still believe the better way would have been open sourcing Presto. If it is similarly capable and more nimble than Webkit, than it should've attracted some attention. Hell, it could have been the "next big thing".
I just hope Dragonfly will be ported and M2, urlfilter, UI, customizations, small size plus ability to easily handle hundreds of open tabs won't be lost.
FireFFFUUUMonday, February 18, 2013 9:42:01 PM
Originally posted by Plague:
This might be true.
Duzmáth TamásMonday, February 18, 2013 10:00:00 PM
Just an idea: is it possible to make Opera open source? I understand that some people want to make webkit browser, it's okay, but some people LOVE Opera and don't want to move to webkit.
Just an idea: is it possible to make Opera open source?
Izer0Monday, February 18, 2013 10:30:33 PM
1. memory cache settings to optimize memory consumption
2. all personal settings to pages like per site personalized cookies, plugins, UA etc. etc, etc.
3. per site personalized content blocker, big added value to opera browser
4. personalized net settings like numbers of all/per session connections to server
5. render page after X second
6. popup menu on doubleclick on an word / easy search word on google
7. open URL by select it in text (to nonlinked url)
8. perfect keyboard - shortcuts customization, ctrl+space to home, new tab shortcut customization etc. only small amount of stupid "chromium" abilities
9. optimized loading for big amount of tabs
10. optimized memory footprint for big amount of tabs/pages opened
11. plugins gone
Nice
PengeMonday, February 18, 2013 11:19:54 PM
Originally posted by brucelawson:
Thanks for the comment! Personally, I'm worried about the lesser-known features, for example: Fit-to-Width, Spatial Navigation, Fast History Navigation, custom buttons, UserJS/UserCSS, advanced site-specific settings, etc.
Obviously the "featured" features will be ported to the Webkit version of Opera.
I guess also the HTML5 specs which are not supported by Webkit (HTML5 Forms, Custom Content Handler, Microdata) will be merged into Webkit.
Many of us are worried about the old, abandoned features which the developers don't focus paid any attention for many years. And thanks for the development which doesn't stirred up the standing water these features are remain from version to version.
virusgratis2Tuesday, February 19, 2013 4:12:52 AM
Originally posted by Penge4:
What're you mean? Fid to width, is a great feature, good when one usates a lot of tabs, resizing the content of every tab to the size of window. Spatial navigation is great if you are an ''expert'' using the keyboard. Fast History Navigation, this is other great feature and should not be removed, as the custom buttons (that add more functiones to opera with pure javascript code), and the specific site settings, there are great features that firefox/chrome hasn't. This makes opera unique browser. Opera will be another ''clon'' of Chrome, less stability, more memory usage, less capability of personalization of the UI and more... another webkit-based browser, this is bad for the open culture on the web. These ''abandoned'' features (but functional) are that makes opera unique,, but no more, it will be the same sh*t that are Chrome, or Maxthon....FransTuesday, February 19, 2013 7:50:14 AM
Originally posted by virusgratis2:
Yes, that's exactly what he means. He's worried about those features, you are, I am, etc.
Michael FadelyTuesday, February 19, 2013 8:43:28 AM
Originally posted by coolclerk:
Yes, and I don't doubt that. But like a car, if you only replace the engine, you'll still have that nice interior that you liked so much.
What I'm saying is that even if what's going on behind the scenes is different, the way you're interacting with it is inherently the same.
QuHnoTuesday, February 19, 2013 10:06:39 AM
For all who need them:
It is like building a Formula 1 or IndyCar engine and gear box into a nice, comfortable, full air conditioned bus with TV, shower, restroom, kitchen and swimming pool. It will not survive the full load, the gear will jam at the first start with more than one person in it, while the old 600hp Diesel just pulled on
*1) true in this case too.
AzraelTuesday, February 19, 2013 10:20:36 AM
Originally posted by SonicFreak94:
And here's the problem - they aren't just replacing the engine, they also ripping out the electrical system (the javascript engine) and replacing it with a new incompatible one.
So yea, that nice interior will have to be completely replaced/redesigned since all the gizmos will no longer work.
Originally posted by SonicFreak94:
And that's what's exactly NOT going to happen, simply because the effort in converting all those features to the new javascript engine is going to be huge and they are not going to bother with it. They are even admitting that publicly - from the TechCrunch's article: We're coming out with a brand new UI, brand new product in Q3.
EricJHTuesday, February 19, 2013 2:08:55 PM
Originally posted by Frenzie:
For me it is the almost silence about them with no happy news about what is going to stay that has me worried. Keep in mind that the decision must have been scrutinised and that this information should be available.I use Opera for its shrewd and cunning features straight from the box and I want the rich functionality to stay. Loosing that would be castrating a successful product.
For me as a happy long term, and usually not a vocal, user that usually went with the flows the lack of information is a straight up insult and may be indicative of contempt and disregard towards Opera's loyal userbase (Opera's free ambassadors) from the powers that cooked this transition...
Daniel SanerTuesday, February 19, 2013 4:32:39 PM
To those who are worrying that Opera will no longer be Opera and become a Chrome or Safari clone: it won't! This change affects only how the actual websites that you open are rendered. It affects what goes on in the "website view" portion of your Opera window, and nothing else! Everything to do with Opera's interface (toolbars, customizability, mouse gestures...) or additional features (mail, chat, Opera Turbo...) is completely unaffected by this. Using the same rendering engine as Chrome also doesn't mean that any of Chrome's other features will appear on Opera (spyware, updater...). So don't worry. It might even mean that Opera have more resources to spend on those features that make Opera unique, now that they don't have to invest in developing their own engine.
I don't know how much this will impact Dragonfly, since it I suppose it is more closely intertwined with the rendering engine. But I'm sure they're aware of the importance it has for many Opera users, and will work on making all its functionality work with Webkit.
Edit: also, the announcement about a completely new UI is probably unrelated to this largely technical change. Opera have always changed their browsers' UI every now and then. They likely would have done so even if they continued using Presto.
timw4mailTuesday, February 19, 2013 4:42:01 PM
Presto is what made Opera Opera. Replacing it just means that Opera is declaring itself a has-been.
It's short-sighted and foolish.
Alphons van WervenTuesday, February 19, 2013 5:28:23 PM
Originally posted by DaSaner:
Sigh. For some of us exactly that is a major reason for choosing Opera in the first place.
netwolfTuesday, February 19, 2013 6:08:28 PM
Originally posted by EricJH:
Pretty much my feelings as well, couldn't have said it better...
AzraelTuesday, February 19, 2013 6:40:35 PM
Originally posted by DaSaner:
Yet you still don't understand the full extent of the problem - they aren't limiting the change to the rendering engine (which indeed would affect only the display of the sites), it includes the core of Opera: the JavaScript engine, Carakan. When that will be changed all those features that explicitly depend on it, and most of those features are, will go with it. The only way those features could be kept is STRICTLY by recoding them for the new JavaScript engine, V8 and, since most of the coding team has been fired, that's not going to happen.
phantom-blackTuesday, February 19, 2013 7:57:44 PM
It's very sad message for me, it was my favourite browser... Opera with presto: 419/500 points: http://html5test.com/results/desktop.html
MossManWednesday, February 20, 2013 6:41:13 AM
Originally posted by DaSaner:
And so I'm afraid your whole argument falls flat on its face!
Dragonfly was the first thing announced to be REMOVED due to WebKit integration. Your assurances are meaningless since we have no way of knowing which features will/won't make it. The recent dropping of Torrents, Unite and Widgets does *not* bode well for a 1:1 copy of the current UI, nor does the stated aim of launching with a "new" UI in the third quarter.
QuHnoWednesday, February 20, 2013 7:04:59 AM
Originally posted by DaSaner:
Don't confuse optics with UI. UI is much more.
In the past, Opera has less changed but modified the UI, mostly in a way that most of the parts still worked in the new version. Normally they only added things, made some occasional changes in some INIs here, some YAML for dialogs there, to fit new needs or add new elements, but all were quite moderate changes that did not compromise the efforts a user made to change the UI in a way that it fits him.
It is about choices, and as with the user-stylesheets in CSS, the users choices should have absolute priority.
FransWednesday, February 20, 2013 9:27:28 AM
Originally posted by QuHno:
But unfortunately user styles haven't had priority since Opera 9.2 or 9.5 or so fixed a "bug" where they did. Only a rude !important gives them priority. /not-relevant-to-the-point
Mimis Mum (MM)Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:55:58 PM
Originally posted by brucelawson:
Thanks, Bruce. Good to know you said "improve UI and fearures", which suggests you do not intend to remove existing features.I have a quick question. About that segment in your post that reads, "Opera will use WebKit as its rendering engine and V8 as its JavaScript engine. It's built using the open-source Chromium browser as one of its components". I wonder you actually meant to say "Opera will use WebKit as its rendering engine and V8 as its JavaScript engine
. It's built using, used in the open-source Chromium browser as one of its components." but got the wording slightly out of alignment. Would be great if you could confirm which was your intention. Cheers.s-ta-sWednesday, February 20, 2013 8:58:40 PM
BetaMorphThursday, February 21, 2013 2:22:36 AM
Originally posted by phantom-black:
How can you tell it will be a "next stinking Chrome"? As far as I see they will use Chromium as a layer to what they have today. There are info saying just that in links already given earlier.
André ZangheliniThursday, February 21, 2013 2:25:11 AM
* Opera is not built-in in the OS.
* Opera is not from a multi-billionaire monopoly which controls the, almost only search engine and video sharing website.
* Opera is not an open-source soft where a bunch of hipster programmers and bloggers demand their users to use because "it's better".
BetaMorphThursday, February 21, 2013 2:26:06 AM
Originally posted by s-ta-s:
300 users went away? I guess they can deal with that.
BetaMorphThursday, February 21, 2013 2:29:07 AM
Originally posted by An-dz:
+100
s-ta-sThursday, February 21, 2013 9:49:07 AM
Originally posted by BetaMorph:
No. Only 300 users will remain.
PengeThursday, February 21, 2013 1:33:37 PM
Originally posted by s-ta-s:
Before: 300 million users and move to WebKit.
After: 300 million users lost after moved to WebKit.
Joking aside: They think they are in winning position, because they know that no matter how much damage it can do to the Opera. Most of us are "forced" to using it, because no real alternative. Chrome? Eats too much memory, highly restricted extension API and just only a GUI with addressbar without extensions. Firefox? Eats too much memory, slow startup, slow response time, buggy browser, buggy extensions. IE/Safari? It's a joke. Maxthon/Comodo, etc.? They're only modified Chromium/Firefox with some popular features.
That's the reason why they don't release the source code. Doing the same tactics in small such as the Microsoft in big.
Daniel SanerThursday, February 21, 2013 3:28:01 PM
Originally posted by skysmurf:
Which is why I explicitly directed my post towards those commenters who were worried about losing features completely unrelated to the engine.
Originally posted by Azrael1:
The JavaScript part was what I was personally most worried about, and somehow I overread its explicit mention in the article above. I assumed they would rewrite their own engine to work with WebKit. But this is indeed a bummer.
Originally posted by MossMan:
Not good either. Where's that announcement?
Dominique JaramilloThursday, February 21, 2013 4:31:40 PM
FireFFFUUUThursday, February 21, 2013 4:58:34 PM
Originally posted by Penge4:
Unfortunately, when you're the small fish, patents and CloseSource seem the only competitive advantage you can have. If not, the bigger fishes will have no problem taking your good things and use them, anyone will remember that you were the first that introduced :/
Originally posted by BetaMorph:
Which also had all the help Google advertising.
The first Google browser was Firefox.
Originally posted by Azrael1:
Not necessarily.
If works on the JS-engine, there shouldn't be major problem except for some non-standard API, since (in theory) even if they are different engines the standard language is the same. In this case would only port these APIs or translated to the equivalent of Webkit.
Another thing are the features that work with the engine internally. I don't know if there are any features that do that.
MossManThursday, February 21, 2013 5:05:21 PM
Originally posted by DaSaner:
https://twitter.com/runeh/status/301616059729969152André ZangheliniThursday, February 21, 2013 8:15:20 PM
I see the dev team is not that 'happy' about this move.
alchemysticThursday, February 21, 2013 8:20:34 PM
This is sad to hear... No more DragonFly, no more Presto.
zarathosThursday, February 21, 2013 8:40:17 PM
Opera+Webkit meangons end of Opera for me. I was using it because it was independent from the mainstream "brown goo" that is served by Google and Apple. Also because it was pretty good with performance and had great features.
I suppose that features wont go away, that performance will be the same or slightly better for now. But with webkit as rendering engine it will be for Safari and Chrom what Maxton was for IE. Just another skin and some different features. I really, really doubt that Opera will gain market with this move. After all people do not care about the engine behind the browser. And Opera is still Opera. And not Chrome.
I used Opera since it got full free (8.5) and was loyal customer. Very loyal as I still use Opera after all those years on all my computers, for private and proffesional work. No more.
I do not want webkit Maxthon called Opera. I don't want to code for another IE-like shit screwing with standards. I will switch to Mozilla and Gecko as my professional browser. And if the rummors about Dragonfly are true - Opera is dead for me, frankly with it being webkit there will be no reason for me to use it at all. I can test the sites on Chrome as well.
It really sucks.
FaivkonaFriday, February 22, 2013 1:24:29 PM
oldawyFriday, February 22, 2013 5:07:30 PM
FireFFFUUUFriday, February 22, 2013 6:17:14 PM
Originally posted by Faivkona:
And Where are you going to?
to the Webkit monopoly?.to the Trident monopoly?.
to the Gecko monopoly?.
At least Webkit is made by a group rather than a single entity, as well as being the most advanced in that group.
oldawyFriday, February 22, 2013 8:41:09 PM
Alphons van WervenFriday, February 22, 2013 11:35:56 PM
Originally posted by oldawy:
Top it in what way?
In terms of UI features Opera will still be way ahead of Chrome. In terms of performance, Opera might possibly still be better than Chrome although not by as much as is the case right now. In terms of standards compliance, Opera will probably go from far superior to completely unremarkable. In terms of number of users, just forget it: this WebKit monkey business is a really bad mistake.
oldawySaturday, February 23, 2013 9:42:42 AM
i don't know much about webkit or presto or whatever but if they can make a far better chrome i don't see why it won't get more people
i don't think they will take such a decision knowing it will make their browser worst
people say chrome lags and slow here but i actually experience opera to be slower and a lot of pages don't work the way it should
i don't know how accurate the tests or those benchmarks people make but you can see that opera always is behind when it comes to stuff like browsing speed and chromes always tops again i don't know if switching to webkit will fix this but if it can i don't see why not.
vux777Saturday, February 23, 2013 1:29:05 PM
...yea, I know they say next month after mobile version is published at the end of this, but... any insider news?